If this is all about DL employee's "overwhelming desire" to unionize...

[USAir757]

Then why are you at a UNION carrier and not at Delta (did they turn you down?)

I'm not at any carrier... my flying is done, pal.

...(why is it not surprising that you embrace parasitic actions)

Why am I not surprised that you consider the actions parasitic? Delta has been non-union since 1924, yet now faced with yet another vote, they are parasitic if they do not organize. If everyone cares so much about the DL people and think they are some of the most professional in the industry, then why not allow them to "ride the wave" that you guys are paving? Is it really that bad if they don't want to take part in your way of life? Using that rationale, they could argue that you should disorganize and make it more of a level playing field for them. Pay based on individual merit and work... what a novel concept.

Such anti union venom coming from someone who has NO ISSUE enjoying the fruits of Unionism.

I'm not trying to spew venom, NxNW. I'm just voicing my opinion, just like everyone else. You can't deny that the work culture at NWA/AA, etc is far different from DL... otherwise there wouldn't be DL employees here arguing against your union position. They should have the facts, of course. But, they also see what your way does to people's attitudes. All they have to do is read around. If I had it to do over, I would have worked for Delta... and maybe I'd be Delta757... but I'd still be saying the same thing.

 

[FlyUs]

I've got an idea...why not go try to make $$ based on the merit of your work rather than artifical inflations? Or are you afraid you'd take a pay cut? The people of DL are quite happy despite your insults...DL people are intelligent-enough to know their compensation and whether they are taking it in the shorts or not. And best of all...DL people aren't a desperate bunch of whiners trying to force change on everyone else just b/c joining the Mickey Mouse club meant something to them. Let me ask you...if DL people need union representation and you have it...why are you the miserable one and DL people content with what they do? I guess every DL person must be stupid in your eyes. But stupidity, to me, is joining a group in which you continue to be miserable and are apparently unknowingly in the game of feeding your union leadership with fat paychecks. If DL people are stupid and that is why they are happy, then call me stupid and happy. Better than being hyper-intelligent as you and miserable.

 

[North by Northwest]

I'm not at any carrier... my flying is done, pal.



Why am I not surprised that you consider the actions parasitic? Delta has been non-union since 1924, yet now faced with yet another vote, they are parasitic if they do not organize. If everyone cares so much about the DL people and think they are some of the most professional in the industry, then why not allow them to "ride the wave" that you guys are paving? Is it really that bad if they don't want to take part in your way of life? Using that rationale, they could argue that you should disorganize and make it more of a level playing field for them.



I'm not trying to spew venom, NxNW. I'm just voicing my opinion, just like everyone else. You can't deny that the work culture at NWA/AA, etc is far different from DL... otherwise there wouldn't be DL employees here arguing against your union position. They should have the facts, of course. But, they also see what your way does to people's attitudes. All they have to do is read around. If I had it to do over, I would have worked for Delta... and maybe I'd be Delta757... but I'd still be saying the same thing.

Let me get this straight...you are not even in the industry, let alone at Delta or NWA?

But you feel the need to chirp your two cents in about how "we" the industry should be working.

The FACTS? You wouldn't recognize a fact if it flew over you and dropped a bird bomb on the tip of your nose. You don't work at Delta, NW, AA, so how the hell would you know what the sentiment is. From a few people out of tens of thousands who shoot the breeze on a blog? Our, work culture at NWA/AA has some of the best Slave benefits in the industry (the same ones Delta management bases it's on, in order to keep Master control over its non union employees with out having to ask their opinion)

Do us a favor...allow us to worry about issues that affect our work environment. So far, all you've contributed to support your argument is "emotionalism" of employees at Union carriers. Where's your nuts and bolts proof of currency and benefits? Delusion is a wonderful State when it doesn't directly impact you.

Frankly, you sound as sickening as steenland exalting about how much he deserves $26.6 million dollars for running an airline into failure, better yet, how employees should be grateful they are allowed to work at an airline at any pay. Why don't you keep your concern for us and use it for whatever industry you currently have a vested interest in, and stay out of ours.

 

[USAir757]

Whoa there buddy... I didn't realize that I needed to be ACTIVELY flying to have an opinion. Forget that I was in the industry since you were probably in diapers, or that I talk and deal regularly with many people who still are, or that I'm an educated individual, or that there is no requirement on this board that you have to be currently employed by an airline in order to post. I should just be quiet because I don't support your argument. So typical!

If you don't like my opinion (which it's clear you don't), then don't read my posts. After all, anyone that doesn't agree with you is... uneducated, not smart, spewing venom, a scab... and now we can add delusional to the list, excellent. I suggest you take some time off and cool down. Your "emotionalism" is showing!

 

[2BlacknBlue]

Pay based on individual merit and work... what a novel concept.

This is just ridiculous. Go ask the merit employees how merit pay works at DL. It is the worst compensation in the working industry...and your efforts and performance have nothing to do with your compensation at DL!

 

[USAir757]

This is just ridiculous. Go ask the merit employees how merit pay works at DL. It is the worst compensation in the working industry...and your efforts and performance have nothing to do with your compensation at DL!

2BnB - Sorry - I'm not suggesting that it does... I'm suggesting that it should.

 

[GSEMAN]

Whoa there buddy... I didn't realize that I needed to be ACTIVELY flying to have an opinion. Forget that I was in the industry since you were probably in diapers, or that I talk and deal regularly with many people who still are, or that I'm an educated individual, or that there is no requirement on this board that you have to be currently employed by an airline in order to post. I should just be quiet because I don't support your argument. So typical!

If you don't like my opinion (which it's clear you don't), then don't read my posts. After all, anyone that doesn't agree with you is... uneducated, not smart, spewing venom, a scab... and now we can add delusional to the list, excellent. I suggest you take some time off and cool down. Your "emotionalism" is showing!

Go get 'em USAir!!!!

 

[Ch. 12]

Ch. 12:

Let me tell you where you are missing a few things here.

First, AFA is a 'non-profit' organization. Unlike airline corporations, or the anti-union lawfirms they employ, we are not motivated by MONEY, nor do increases in membership cause anybody's salary to increase. Take me, for example -- I was driving a 1999 Jeep Wrangler when I raised my hand to help the Delta FAs and will still be driving it after the campaign is over. My point; THERE IS NO FINANCIAL BENEFIT. You see, a car salesman gets a 'commission'. On the other hand, what I do get, is the honor of welcoming 14,000 fellow FAs into our union, and the security of knowing that if we merge with Delta, I won't have to worry that our executives will NOW SUCCEED in the outsourcing scheme they attempted 2 years ago. FYI - NWA attempted to oursource 75% of all of our international flying to low-cost foreign FAs, thereby eliminated nearly 45% of our US based jobs. With no union on the property, it clears the way for them to FINISH that plan -- and start one of the last "race to the bottom" trends in our industry. Thankfully, AFA was here to stop it from happening during the last attempt.

Wahoo...you have hit on your outlined talking points. My one talking point is and has been that DL people are happy and have a culture very different from the misery you are accustomed to. Why try to expand your misery? I am sorry that you are receiving no financial gains. I have made the conclusion about union business through my own viewings and others' complaints. Heck...just read half of the postings from AAers about their own TWU. Though I'm sure that the AFA is better than any union regardless of service, etc. Here's my question to you...and it's honest b/c maybe the answer is out there and I can't find it. The COMPANIES are forced to account for their finances to the general public. In doing so, I can see how much is being spent in certain areas, how that changes, and how viable the long-term outlook is. Now take the AFA which boasts 55,000 members (am I good propaganda for you? I just did your job). Now take 55k dues-paying members that foot a $43 bill each month. By my calculations, there is a pot of over $28 Million collected off the backs of the members each year. Is there one big pizza party at the end of the year? And I don't care about NWA's attempts to outsource 75% of international flying (wow...i grabbed that exact line both from your post and from your propaganda website...you two must think alike). Sure that's bad for NWAers and I did sincerely feel for them but THIS post is about DAL. THAT is not a problem at DAL. Different culture, different experiences, different world. You can't understand that and are trying to forment misery since you have been miserable. Get over it. It's a FAR different world at DL than NW.

Finally, you completely missed the point about how we are "reimbursed" in AFA instead of earning any "salary". Let me put it to you this way. Because I have been working full-time on organizing campaigns for AFA, I have actually LOST about 6k - 8k in 2007 because I receive ONLY lost flight hours (not per diem, not any other premiums [if you are not a FA, this won't make any sense to you - but I know the Delta FAs will understand what I mean]. So, instead of working 15 - 20 days per month, I am working 30days per month - and I am doing it for 8k LESS than if I was flying the line. So, please spare me with the "financial motivation' non-sense. There are people in the world who are not motivated by the all-mighty dollar.

You and others have already noted that you are in this b/c you "don't want DL FAs ruining YOUR pay". It's funny that your propaganda makes your organizational efforts seem so pristine and selfless...that you are trying to "save" the DL FAs yet on these boards it constantly comes out that this is about YOUR compensation and that YOU will gain from it. Sickening.

P.S. The airline rankings stand on their own merits. You are the person who made the sweeping (unsubstantiated) claim that we are all 'miserable' - I merely pointed out that it obviously doesn't play out in customer satisfaction. If you have evidence to support your claim, produce it -- otherwise, accept that your comments are simply one person's uneducated opinion.

Guess you can't get beyond your talking points that were handed to you. Go read the ACTUAL airline rankings report that you cited. Here's a link since you obviously didn't read it. They DON'T stand on their own merits b/c as I mentioned...EVERY carrier's rankings plummeted, they are largely based on subjectives (pax complaints), and that NW's better ranking is due to on-times and baggage and NOT customer satisfaction. Take a look at how you hold up in those categories. Based on your customer satisfaction conclusions, I think I'm heading to CO or AS or... Airline Quality Report In fact...the worst customer service numbers are at UA and US which are AFA carriers, correct? Guess AFA must not spend as much time at those carriers making them "happy and joyful"? Careful what metrics you use in your propaganda. Good luck selling your lemon (lemming?) of a car.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

And I don't care about NWA's attempts to outsource 75% of international flying (wow...i grabbed that exact line both from your post and from your propaganda website...you two must think alike). Sure that's bad for NWAers and I did sincerely feel for them but THIS post is about DAL. THAT is not a problem at DAL. Different culture, different experiences, different world. You can't understand that and are trying to forment misery since you have been miserable. Get over it. It's a FAR different world at DL than NW.

Ch 12, I'm curious...are you a DL FA?
I am. And I am concerned. Why? because the same people running the combined Delta/NW are the same people who were running it when NW proposed the outsourcing of Int'l flying.

 

[Ch. 12]

Ch 12, I'm curious...are you a DL FA?
I am. And I am concerned. Why? because the same people running the combined Delta/NW are the same people who were running it when NW proposed the outsourcing of Int'l flying.

So you've bought it hook, line, and sinker, Luke. The prposed BOD is FAR different from NW's and will be comprised of a majority (9 to 7) DAL members + an ALPA. And you should know better regarding your own DL. While AMR, NWA, etc are seeking to outsource everything, DAL, CAL, and others have seen the value in keeping it in-house...namely Mx and Cust Svc (including inflight) functions. You can't pitch being a "fresh", "high-service" carrier and outsource your inflight. But I'm glad you have subscribed to the propaganda.

Yes I am DL and no I am NOT a FA. But every decision that the company makes...mgmt down to rank-and-file...affects my livlihood and future. I do not want to see any DL employee going away and I honestly do not see the outsourcing attempt that was made at NWA making its way to DAL. DAL has not forced these decisions in the past with a non-unionized workforce, and they won't in the future just b/c some NWA AFA recruiters told you they would. The garbage and desperation that I'm seeing on these boards from recruiters and people that don't even know what DAL is about is disgusting. You and I have been at DAL and know what it's about. It will take time for others to understand that there can be different cultures than what they are used to from their carriers. Just b/c they experienced it in a different culture does NOT mean it will happen here. Make decisions based on what work for you and your fellow DLers in the long-term (i.e. sustainability)...but please don't get intimidated or panicked by the trash that others are feeding you. Like I pointed out in my last post...Danny uses cust satisfaction as a measure of AFA's success and it is abysmal at their carriers (UA, US, YV). The pitches are nothing but lie after lie...they need more than $28M a year in income to survive, apparently.

 

[Airlinelifer]

So you've bought it hook, line, and sinker, Luke. The prposed BOD is FAR different from NW's and will be comprised of a majority (9 to 7) DAL members + an ALPA. And you should know better regarding your own DL. While AMR, NWA, etc are seeking to outsource everything, DAL, CAL, and others have seen the value in keeping it in-house...namely Mx and Cust Svc (including inflight) functions. You can't pitch being a "fresh", "high-service" carrier and outsource your inflight. But I'm glad you have subscribed to the propaganda.

Yes I am DL and no I am NOT a FA. But every decision that the company makes...mgmt down to rank-and-file...affects my livlihood and future. I do not want to see any DL employee going away and I honestly do not see the outsourcing attempt that was made at NWA making its way to DAL. DAL has not forced these decisions in the past with a non-unionized workforce, and they won't in the future just b/c some NWA AFA recruiters told you they would. The garbage and desperation that I'm seeing on these boards from recruiters and people that don't even know what DAL is about is disgusting. You and I have been at DAL and know what it's about. It will take time for others to understand that there can be different cultures than what they are used to from their carriers. Just b/c they experienced it in a different culture does NOT mean it will happen here. Make decisions based on what work for you and your fellow DLers in the long-term (i.e. sustainability)...but please don't get intimidated or panicked by the trash that others are feeding you. Like I pointed out in my last post...Danny uses cust satisfaction as a measure of AFA's success and it is abysmal at their carriers (UA, US, YV). The pitches are nothing but lie after lie...they need more than $28M a year in income to survive, apparently.

Ch 12, did you know that Delta vendors out a majority of its below wing Customer Service (ramp)? Delta only has ramp personnel in 15 cities. The rest are vendored out to DGS (Delta Global Service, a Delta subsidiary) or other vendors. Northwest Airlines has ramp personnel in 40 cities, is Delta going to keep open the cities that NWA ramp presently works at? I don't want to start my career at Delta with a layoff notice.

 

[Ch. 12]

Ch 12, did you know that Delta vendors out a majority of its below wing Customer Service (ramp)? Delta only has ramp personnel in 15 cities. The rest are vendored out to DGS (Delta Global Service, a Delta subsidiary) or other vendors. Northwest Airlines has ramp personnel in 40 cities, is Delta going to keep open the cities that NWA ramp presently works at? I don't want to start my career at Delta with a layoff notice.

Ah yes...the DGS argument. But they ARE DL...in the form of a subsidiary. I don't recall reading in the news how DL fired all of their rampers and replaced them with DGS...it grew with the company. Do you think that DGS has a massive reserve pool waiting to come off of their couches to take the thousands of ramp jobs that will open up when mean ol' DL fires every last one of the NWA rampers? No. Do you go from being a NWA ramper to a DGS ramper? probably. That is still DL, though. What is the difference?

I know it's easier said than done but please don't subscribe to all of the rumors that those that benefit from your dues are trying to put out there. Again...it is logistically impossible for DGS to magically make thousands of rampers appear on their staff to take your jobs.

 

[UnionAMT]

Good illustration there... anybody who doesn't agree with you must be drinking Kool-Aid. Perhaps you should look at yourselves and your own drink of choice.



This is absolutely true. Unions change work culture, and will likely destroy whatever harmony is left at Delta. You need only to look at the posts of the pro-union people here to see that they need DL's organization so badly, they will go on every airline board to insist that it is the only way. People have referred to it as communism, and in a way it is... in that, you must have total participation in order for the system to work.



They get their cake, and they eat it too. Sounds to me like you're just jealous...



And that is true to form with most of the pro-union posters here.... those who don't wish to organize are "in deep denial of reality", "drinking Kool-Aid", "Not smart", just not up to your league of intelligence.... because, of course, your way is the ONLY way, right?



Congratulations to you then, for being so polite while you tell them that they don't know anything about anything. I'm sure they are humbled by your enormous and profound bank of intelligence. :blink:



See this Delta guys? Jealousy runs deep... and they are already calling you scabs, before you've ever crossed a picket line. I feel sorry if you have to work with some of these people. Not miserable? Sure looks like it from these seats. :down:

 

[UnionAMT]

Good illustration there... anybody who doesn't agree with you must be drinking Kool-Aid. Perhaps you should look at yourselves and your own drink of choice.



This is absolutely true. Unions change work culture, and will likely destroy whatever harmony is left at Delta. You need only to look at the posts of the pro-union people here to see that they need DL's organization so badly, they will go on every airline board to insist that it is the only way. People have referred to it as communism, and in a way it is... in that, you must have total participation in order for the system to work.



They get their cake, and they eat it too. Sounds to me like you're just jealous...



And that is true to form with most of the pro-union posters here.... those who don't wish to organize are "in deep denial of reality", "drinking Kool-Aid", "Not smart", just not up to your league of intelligence.... because, of course, your way is the ONLY way, right?



Congratulations to you then, for being so polite while you tell them that they don't know anything about anything. I'm sure they are humbled by your enormous and profound bank of intelligence. :blink:



See this Delta guys? Jealousy runs deep... and they are already calling you scabs, before you've ever crossed a picket line. I feel sorry if you have to work with some of these people. Not miserable? Sure looks like it from these seats. :down:

You certainly are misinformed. There's a world of difference between harmony and complacency.
Harmony is what you have when employees retirements/vacation/and jobs aren't stolen from them so that an oil cartel can reap billions of dollars for the elitists of the world.
Complacency is what exists at Delta Airlines. And what keeps people oppressed in third world countries. People that feel they have no choice, resign themselves, with the help of corrupt governments and in this case Delta's communication department, to be good little children and don't put up a fuss.
They haven't yet figured out that an enormous game is being played out, on them.
If the Delta employees want to save themselves from joining the global labor market, then they better figure out how they can be part of the union machine, and get ready to roll up their sleeves and fight for their jobs and worker justice in the long run.

 

[cat3]

Ah yes...the DGS argument. But they ARE DL...in the form of a subsidiary. I don't recall reading in the news how DL fired all of their rampers and replaced them with DGS...it grew with the company. Do you think that DGS has a massive reserve pool waiting to come off of their couches to take the thousands of ramp jobs that will open up when mean ol' DL fires every last one of the NWA rampers? No. Do you go from being a NWA ramper to a DGS ramper? probably. That is still DL, though. What is the difference?

I know it's easier said than done but please don't subscribe to all of the rumors that those that benefit from your dues are trying to put out there. Again...it is logistically impossible for DGS to magically make thousands of rampers appear on their staff to take your jobs.

Delta did in fact get rid of their rampers in SEA and brought in DGS. DGS did such a poor job and damaged so many airplanes and lost most of the DL ramp contracts that Delta actually got rid of them and brought in another low-buck provider.