I'll just leave this here....

[topDawg]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flying-cheaper/
 
 
most people around here know the real dangers of these vendors doing work. 
but i am sure someone will be along to tell us those employees and such all lie and Mother D and the other airlines only do what is best for us. 
 
 
 
and PS, 319/320 HMVs are done by the vendor and 757 HMVs are also done in SAT by the same company. 

 

[Kev3188]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flying-cheaper/
 
 
most people around here know the real dangers of these vendors doing work. 
but i am sure someone will be along to tell us those employees and such all lie and Mother D and the other airlines only do what is best for us. 

What's the over/under on when that'll happen? Lunchtime?
 
 
 

 

[topDawg]

What's the over/under on when that'll happen? Lunchtime?

I think thats a safe bet.

That or he wont show up.....

 

[WorldTraveler]

perhaps you can show us a quote from the person you think believes the position you are purporting.

nowhere have I ever said anything other than that DL Tech Ops is the best in the business, which means everyone else including vendors, aren't going to measure quite as highly.

and why didn't you post this on WN or UA's page? they have higher levels of outsourcing than DL does... plus all of the LCCs.

now that AA and UA are one company, they have the same level of outsourcing as DL.

why your paranoia that this is a DL thing?

 

[topDawg]

perhaps you can show us a quote from the person you think believes the position you are purporting.

nowhere have I ever said anything other than that DL Tech Ops is the best in the business, which means everyone else including vendors, aren't going to measure quite as highly.

and why didn't you post this on WN or UA's page? they have higher levels of outsourcing than DL does... plus all of the LCCs.

now that AA and UA are one company, they have the same level of outsourcing as DL.

why your paranoia that this is a DL thing?

Deflection 
some more deflection then some deflection. 
 
Shocking 

 

[WorldTraveler]

no deflection at all....

I never have tried to argue for the quality of contractor work over DL Tech Ops work.

Never.

you made that charge.

now prove it.

 

[topDawg]

no deflection at all....

I never have tried to argue for the quality of contractor work over DL Tech Ops work.

Never.

you made that charge.

now prove it.

watch the video. That proves everything. 
 
 
 
And FWIW to outsource HMVs Delta, at the time, was supposedly saving ~40M a year. IE the cost of about 2-3 88 overhauls.  (and that was well before things like sending the 767/777/330s to Asia. I bet it is even smaller of a number if not a loss now) 

 

[eolesen]

If you want to advance a cause, trying to use the Frontline "expose" isn't where I'd be starting. There was lots of discussion on that four years ago, and it's a one sided hack piece. As I recall, it's a shock journalism piece that O'Brien filmed after getting fired from CNN, and a couple of other outlets passed on it before PBS finally nibbled on the hook.

Either way, it's entertainment at best, not investigative journalism.

 

[FWAAA]

and why didn't you post this on WN or UA's page? they have higher levels of outsourcing than DL does... plus all of the LCCs.

I know you'll have some weasel-words to try to salvage this incorrect statement, but DL outsources 100% of its heavy airframe overhauls, while WN now performs four lines of heavy maintenance at DAL.

Yes, DL insources some heavy airframe overhauls for other airlines, but that doesn't change the fact that DL outsources all of its mainline Delta heavy overhauls, and WN does not.
 

And FWIW to outsource HMVs Delta, at the time, was supposedly saving ~40M a year. IE the cost of about 2-3 88 overhauls.  (and that was well before things like sending the 767/777/330s to Asia. I bet it is even smaller of a number if not a loss now)

2-3 MD-88 overhausl? You're not saying that a heavy overhaul of an MD-88 costs $13 million to $20 million, are you? If so, I think that may be an over-estimate by a factor of 10.

Here's what AA says about airframe overhaul:
 

• Narrowbody "C" Checks

American does two types of "C" checks on its narrowbody planes. The first is a "Light C" check, which occurs approximately every 15 - 18 months. It requires approximately 2,100 man-hours and three days to accomplish. Every fourth "Light C" check becomes a "Heavy C" check. This check requires 20,000 - 30,000 man-hours and takes from three to five weeks to accomplish.

20k to 30k man-hours would equal $1.0 million to $1.5 million at $50/hr, plus parts.

I have no idea how much money the airlines save by outsourcing heavy airframe overhauls, but it outsourcing was more expensive, wouldn't airlines be insourcing more overhauls?

 

[WorldTraveler]

wow..... you are trying so hard to defame me that you will fall in line with 700's arguments, despite the fact that your statement is as incomplete as his.

Maintenance consists of multiple functions of which airframe overhauls is only part.

based on industry accepted and DOT used methodology which is based on valuation, DL outsources less overall maintenance than all other carriers except PMAA.

now that AA and US are one airline - and they are whether some people want to argue otherwise or not - AA/US outsources within a percent or two of the total amount of maintenance as DL does.

and if you haven't figured it out yet, dawg is a DL employee who will wants to be able to do heavy airframe overhauls despite the fact that DL says that dawg is trained, licensed and supposed to be smart enough to do lots of kinds of jobs.

but dawg doesn't like that answer so he has made an internet career out of deriding the company because they won't let him do what he wants to do.

and E once again is right.

and the bigger issue is if outsourced overhauls are the issues why dawg is focused on DL.

WN built its maintenance program from the beginning based on outsourced maintenance. DL has never outsourced as much as WN does and WN has never outsourced as little as DL has at its max.

and of course Parker has now discovered how much he can outsource at AA - a trick he learned at US where US outsourced more maintenance than any of the legacies.

 

[700UW]

A light c or c is not total overhaul depending on the airline and the plane a Q, D or S-check are the total overhaul and as the plane gets older the cost of the check rises.

 

[WorldTraveler]

which is precisely why industry standard rules measure outsourcing based on the value of what is done inhouse vs. what is outsourced.

Two columns.

one final percentage.

DL is in better shape regarding outsourcing compared to every other airline except AA with whom it is now on par on a combined basis.

but that wouldn't make much of an article if dawg had to post that "DL outsources on par with one other carrier and better than the rest of the industry" now would it?

 

[Kev3188]

If you want to advance a cause, trying to use the Frontline "expose" isn't where I'd be starting. There was lots of discussion on that four years ago, and it's a one sided hack piece. As I recall, it's a shock journalism piece that O'Brien filmed after getting fired from CNN, and a couple of other outlets passed on it before PBS finally nibbled on the hook.Either way, it's entertainment at best, not investigative journalism.

Not for nothing, I'm pretty sure he's back with CNN.

 

[FWAAA]

A light c or c is not total overhaul depending on the airline and the plane a Q, D or S-check are the total overhaul and as the plane gets older the cost of the check rises.

At old AA, heavy airframe overhauls were called "heavy C checks" which are exactly the same as what other airlines call "D checks." Old US probably called them something else. The aircraft is completely disassembled, inspected, any problems are repaired and then reassembled along with numerous new parts and rebuilt components.

If a heavy C check (or D check) really cost $13 million to $20 million each, then most single-aisle airplanes would not receive more than one of those checks - it would not be economical to spend that much money for just another five or six years of useful life.

 

[eolesen]

Not for nothing, I'm pretty sure he's back with CNN.

Unless it's a recent event, his website still says he's freelance, and a correspondent for PBS. Hardly unusual. Just like the airlines do in several areas (legal, IT, maintenance), the news networks seem to have generalists for the day to day, and outsource the specialty work to freelancers.