Industry Standard Wages

[iluvaa]

Scope and work classification sets the work that is going to be done by union members covered under the CBA. So yes the union does have a say in how many AMTs need to be hired.



Where did anyone say anything about the union firing people? The TWU has never done that, no individual members dropping a dime...

You espouse the virtues of a "professional craft union" yet you know nothing of what a collective bargaining agreement covers and how that applies to the members that are covered by it. "Sign a card but I have no idea what I am talking about."

You are hilarious Dave. A riot!

Hey ya lying ass I have seen the the TWU get someone fired he was on 5A in tul for not paying his dues burn in hell ya lying mother F'er

 

[Overspeed]

In 2008, AMFA has 5000 Mechanics still on the job at UAL when the Teamsters were certified. Ual also goin through a BK Court.

After AA RIF's, Increased Outsourcing, and the change in ASM restriction.
TWU at AA will also be at or below 5000 mechanics.

Like I said, try checking the dirt on your own porch before attacking the dirt at some other carrier.

Craft Unionism is Superior to Industrial Unionism.......period!

You are still wrong.

AMFA 25,000 members in 2000, now 3,000. The UA guys ran away from AMFA when they saw how they fought for the IND and OAK bases. Those jobs were given up under AMFA's watch which is a big reason why they smartened up and left the craft union for the industrial one (IBT).

Keep spinning Dave. Not working.

Giving up 90% of your members so that 10% could get a pay raise. Priceless.

The 4/26 deal was for only 1,300 AMT jobs to be outsourced. Even under the 3/22 deal it goes to about 3,000. So 4,000 on the Line and almost 4,000 in TUL. That is still better than the craft union did at UA and NW. What was that number of jobs outsourced at NW again? What about AS? What happened their? No BK and where was the craft union fight?


AMFA has permitted massive outsourcing. The following work has been outsourced during AMFA’s time as representative:

• Wheel and Brake Shop – AMFA settled a grievance brought before they were voted in and agreed to farm this work out.
• 737 Heavy Check – moved from SEA to OAK and then lost completely when the base was closed in September 2004 without notice, cutting 340 jobs. Maintenance work outsourced to Goodrich ATS in Everett, WA and AAR in OKC
• MD80 Heavy Check
• GSE Work – GSE mechanics walked off like criminals
• Seat Shop
• Slide Shop
• Window Shop
• Fabricator Shop
• Accessory Shop
• Paint Shop
• APU Shop
• Composite Shop
• Intermediate Maintenance
• Engine Shop

 

[Overspeed]

No Sh!t. AA is in bankruptcy. Airline employees are never offered pay increases when their employers file Ch 11. Bankruptcy means decreased pay and benefits, not more.


The worthless union and company management have failed you for decades. Once you guys replace the worthless union, you guys should demand that your new negotiators offer the company the Southwest AMFA contract, verbatim.

AA would love that.

 

[Overspeed]

Hey ya lying ass I have seen the the TWU get someone fired he was on 5A in tul for not paying his dues burn in hell ya lying mother F'er

Article 38 violation. He deserved it.

He fired himself. Art 38 states of you don't pay your dues you get fired. The TWU didn't fire him, they notified HR that he was not holding up the provisions of the CBA.

 

[Overspeed]

At 12/31/11, UA had 4,777 technicians and related and CO had 3,739 (including 113 at CO Micronesia) for a total of 8,516 IBT-represented mechanics and related. In addition, UA and CO had 863 stock clerks represented by the IAM. Mainline fleet was 701 planes plus another 555 regional planes. 2011 revenue was $37 billion, 54% greater than AMR's total revenue.

In 2008, AMFA has 5000 Mechanics still on the job at UAL when the Teamsters were certified. Ual also goin through a BK Court.

After AA RIF's, Increased Outsourcing, and the change in ASM restriction.
TWU at AA will also be at or below 5000 mechanics.

Like I said, try checking the dirt on your own porch before attacking the dirt at some other carrier.

Craft Unionism is Superior to Industrial Unionism.......period!

Why would you quote and article that holds IBT - an industrial union - speaking of how they ousted the poor performing craft union AMFA and say that craft unionism is superior. What the...? Your losing it man.

 

[Overspeed]

Yes and AA is headed into those same numbers as far as headcount.

However, we are not being offered the supporting Pay/Benefit Package compared to our peers.

Thus topic discussion that is suppose to be about Industry Standard in Wages.
But the sympathetic TWU Fear Mongers are running over the thread.

How did AMFA do with the expedited arbitration at AS?

AMFA Calls Alaska Airlines Maintenance Reductions `A Blatant Contract Violation'
Friday September 10, 3:38 pm ET
Union Will Seek Expedited Arbitration


SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 10, 2004--The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) called today's decision by Alaska Airlines' to substantially reduce the number of its mechanics and related employees "a blatant contract violation" and said this flies in the face of the National Transportation Safety Board's (NTSB) admonition for the airline to bolster in-house maintenance following the 2001 crash of flight 261.
According to AMFA National Director O.V. Delle-Femine, "The contract Alaska signed with us requires them to meet with us prior to any outsourcing decision. They didn't do this. The contract further requires the company to demonstrate, with hard data, that outsourcing would save them money. They didn't do this, either. They unleashed this decision without giving us an opportunity to discuss the matter and potentially come up with better alternatives, creating tremendous disruption for our members and their families. We are assessing the number of members who will receive layoff notices. Our legal firm is already preparing for legal action."

"Our contract calls for both parties to promote the safety of air transportation, 'to the fullest extent possible.' Today's decision flouts this agreement and the NTSB mandate by putting heavy aircraft maintenance into the hands of private repair stations whose employees are not subject to the same licensing requirements, background security checks, and drug and alcohol testing, as mechanics employed by Alaska Air," said AMFA Region I Director Louie Key.

"AMFA will seek expedited arbitration and use all avenues available to ensure our membership is represented to the fullest extent possible under the terms of the contract and the law," Key said.

 

[Overspeed]

From people who lived the dream. Ouch! AMFA...uh not so good at AS and NW Dave.

Alaska Mechanics Not Protected Against Farm Outs
April 30, 2003

Well as a fine example of how well AMFA has done to represent the mechanics and related at Alaska Airlines once again we see that AMFA failed to negotiate Farm Out protection for their members at Alaska.

Under Article 2 Scope of Agreement Paragraph C states:

The Company agrees that all work normally performed by the employees covered by this Agreement in its Maintenance Shops, Airport Stations, or other facilities is recognized as coming within the jurisdiction of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association and is covered by this Agreement. The parties agree that the Company may (1) continue to contract out work heretofore customarily farmed out; (2) return equipment, parts, or assemblies to the manufacturers or to a manufacturer-approved repair station for repair or replacement; (3) purchase necessary parts, equipment or facilities including but not limited to the installation of fixed equipment and new facilities construction; (4) contract out any work when the Company's facilities, equipment or personnel are not sufficient or available or where employees covered by this Agreement do not have the experience and ability to satisfactorily perform the work required or warranty agreements exist; (5) contract out any work for which the Company's cost exceeds the vendors charges, less material; (6) reserve the right to contract out other work with the approval of the Union.

This was negotiated with the first AMFA contract at Alaska and was not amended with this last contract negotiations. Why is AMFA letting Alaska farm out what ever work they want and as much as they want?

The "Iron Clad" farm out protection that AMFA boastfully negotiated for the Northwest Mechanic backfired on AMFA with so much work being farmed out now that 4,500 mechanics and related have been laid off at Northwest while their Heavy Maintenance is done over seas and their engine work is being done at a 3rd party maintenance facility just to site a couple examples.

But when O.V. Delle Femine was asked about farm out protection and the lack of it in the Alaska, Atlantic Coast, and Mesaba contracts. Delle said that the Scope Clause protected them from farming out maintenance.

Well Delle you lied again. Since AMFA came to Alaska mechanics in Seattle where told approximately 1.5 to 2 years ago that Seattle was going to be a line maintenance base only and that they would have to relocate to Oakland where the heavy maintenance would be done.

Many mechanics relocated and some where even laid off because of this change. Now this might not seem so bad except for the fact that the 737 heavy maintenance that had been done in Seattle did not relocate with the mechanics. Instead Alaska is farming out all 737 heavy checks to B.F. Goodrich Aerospace (Tramco) in Everett, WA. This accounts for 70% of their fleet. Alaska has 71 737's (9 737-200C, 40 737-400, 16 737-700, and 6 737-900) and 31 MD80's.

70% of all the heavy maintenance at Alaska Airlines is being farmed out to a 3rd party non-union maintenance facility. While AMFA has not done anything to stop it! Where is their protection? How many other companies will be allowed to farm out their maintenance at the expense of the hard working mechanics at those airlines?

While hard working mechanics get laid off and their work is farmed out Delle does nothing. Instead of relaxing in the grand AMFA castle in the golden promise land in Loconia, NH maybe Delle should do something about protecting the work of those he represents.

 

[Buck]

All this being said , why are AMFA represented mechanics the highest paid and AA's mechanics are leaving as fast as they can?

 

[aapitbull]

From people who lived the dream. Ouch! AMFA...uh not so good at AS and NW Dave.

Alaska Mechanics Not Protected Against Farm Outs
April 30, 2003

Well as a fine example of how well AMFA has done to represent the mechanics and related at Alaska Airlines once again we see that AMFA failed to negotiate Farm Out protection for their members at Alaska.

Under Article 2 Scope of Agreement Paragraph C states:

The Company agrees that all work normally performed by the employees covered by this Agreement in its Maintenance Shops, Airport Stations, or other facilities is recognized as coming within the jurisdiction of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association and is covered by this Agreement. The parties agree that the Company may (1) continue to contract out work heretofore customarily farmed out; (2) return equipment, parts, or assemblies to the manufacturers or to a manufacturer-approved repair station for repair or replacement; (3) purchase necessary parts, equipment or facilities including but not limited to the installation of fixed equipment and new facilities construction; (4) contract out any work when the Company's facilities, equipment or personnel are not sufficient or available or where employees covered by this Agreement do not have the experience and ability to satisfactorily perform the work required or warranty agreements exist; (5) contract out any work for which the Company's cost exceeds the vendors charges, less material; (6) reserve the right to contract out other work with the approval of the Union.

This was negotiated with the first AMFA contract at Alaska and was not amended with this last contract negotiations. Why is AMFA letting Alaska farm out what ever work they want and as much as they want?

The "Iron Clad" farm out protection that AMFA boastfully negotiated for the Northwest Mechanic backfired on AMFA with so much work being farmed out now that 4,500 mechanics and related have been laid off at Northwest while their Heavy Maintenance is done over seas and their engine work is being done at a 3rd party maintenance facility just to site a couple examples.

But when O.V. Delle Femine was asked about farm out protection and the lack of it in the Alaska, Atlantic Coast, and Mesaba contracts. Delle said that the Scope Clause protected them from farming out maintenance.

Well Delle you lied again. Since AMFA came to Alaska mechanics in Seattle where told approximately 1.5 to 2 years ago that Seattle was going to be a line maintenance base only and that they would have to relocate to Oakland where the heavy maintenance would be done.

Many mechanics relocated and some where even laid off because of this change. Now this might not seem so bad except for the fact that the 737 heavy maintenance that had been done in Seattle did not relocate with the mechanics. Instead Alaska is farming out all 737 heavy checks to B.F. Goodrich Aerospace (Tramco) in Everett, WA. This accounts for 70% of their fleet. Alaska has 71 737's (9 737-200C, 40 737-400, 16 737-700, and 6 737-900) and 31 MD80's.

70% of all the heavy maintenance at Alaska Airlines is being farmed out to a 3rd party non-union maintenance facility. While AMFA has not done anything to stop it! Where is their protection? How many other companies will be allowed to farm out their maintenance at the expense of the hard working mechanics at those airlines?

While hard working mechanics get laid off and their work is farmed out Delle does nothing. Instead of relaxing in the grand AMFA castle in the golden promise land in Loconia, NH maybe Delle should do something about protecting the work of those he represents.

Typical double standard you claim every contract that AMFA has negoitated at SWA is just the IBT update but when the scope langauage lost by the IAM in the failed strike in the late 80's was used to outsource maintenance at AS you blame AMFA hell when AMFA took over at AS they did not even have a closed shop barely had a contract due to the IAM getting their teeth kicked in. So anytime something happens its AMFA fault this was 2003/4 who else outsourced Maintenance in the early 2000's owe yea everybody.

What was the twu doing at the very same time? selling the companys shared sacrifice that has just blown up in our face, hell the fact that we were willing to do maintenance for next to nothing is what caused alot of the industry outsourcing, I would call you a fool but you are not, you know the truth you just seek to deceive there where two dock lines in Oak a little over 300 mechanics there where thousands of ex TWA mechanics laid off by AA at the very same time and yet you say nothing about them. As I recall the settlement gave enhanced severence and one year medical coverage to anyone who opted to severe from the company the rest where put on recall list and have been given a oppurtunity to come back to work can that be said about the ex TWA mechanics. NO!!

Go sale your hogsh#t somewhere else!

 

[Overspeed]

Typical double standard you claim every contract that AMFA has negoitated at SWA is just the IBT update but when the scope langauage lost by the IAM in the failed strike in the late 80's was used to outsource maintenance at AS you blame AMFA hell when AMFA took over at AS they did not even have a closed shop barely had a contract due to the IAM getting their teeth kicked in. So anytime something happens its AMFA fault this was 2003/4 who else outsourced Maintenance in the early 2000's owe yea everybody.

What was the twu doing at the very same time? selling the companys shared sacrifice that has just blown up in our face, hell the fact that we were willing to do maintenance for next to nothing is what caused alot of the industry outsourcing, I would call you a fool but you are not, you know the truth you just seek to deceive there where two dock lines in Oak a little over 300 mechanics there where thousands of ex TWA mechanics laid off by AA at the very same time and yet you say nothing about them. As I recall the settlement gave enhanced severence and one year medical coverage to anyone who opted to severe from the company the rest where put on recall list and have been given a oppurtunity to come back to work can that be said about the ex TWA mechanics. NO!!

Go sale your hogsh#t somewhere else!

Not everybody, AA stayed in house.

Let's do the math. Working at AA for $33/hour, accruing pension service, and still maintain retiree medical prefunding at TUL/MCI/AFW and UAL SFO having your work outsourced to China and looking for a new job, at NW work outsourced looking for a new job, or working at AS... yep you guessed it looking for a new job. Making $33/hour versus unemployment and looking for a new job...$33/hour is more than next to nothing.

The TWA and AA AMTs that were laid off were a direct result of the economic downturn and their jobs were NOT outsourced which is completely different than UA, NW, and AS where their work was outsourced and was the reason they were laid off. I do know the truth and am far from being deceitful. AA did put a SiS package and extended benefits to all those RIF'd several times. Get your facts straight first before posting.

 

[aapitbull]

Not everybody, AA stayed in house.

Let's do the math. Working at AA for $33/hour, accruing pension service, and still maintain retiree medical prefunding at TUL/MCI/AFW and UAL SFO having your work outsourced to China and looking for a new job, at NW work outsourced looking for a new job, or working at AS... yep you guessed it looking for a new job. Making $33/hour versus unemployment and looking for a new job...$33/hour is more than next to nothing.

The TWA and AA AMTs that were laid off were a direct result of the economic downturn and their jobs were NOT outsourced which is completely different than UA, NW, and AS where their work was outsourced and was the reason they were laid off. I do know the truth and am far from being deceitful. AA did put a SiS package and extended benefits to all those RIF'd several times. Get your facts straight first before posting.

As I said twu loses job it's the economy AMFA loses a job it's there fault. You say nothing about the IAM geting their teeth kicked in and I suppose the fact that we kept our work by taking huge paycuts and OSM wages and the destruction of 30 years of work rules 1/2 pay for sick time giving back earned vacation working together under the guise that we would get third party work, the removal of more than half of our holidays loss of double time and double time and half for holidays increase in medical contributions and after all this and more the company is back for our pension and medical retirement to outsource the work they did not get in 2003 and the destruction of the rest of the work rules and you wanted us to vote yes. Do you really think you should be thumping your chest and throwing stones at others? Please common lies that anyone who has been paying attention can see thru.

Owe yea how many Mechanics lost their job at Pan AM and F/A's at Eastern all on the twu's watch No union has been exempt from BK's and Force Majure but when it happens to AMFA it's their fault when it's the TWU it's someone or something else to blame!

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

Article 38 violation. He deserved it.

He fired himself. Art 38 states of you don't pay your dues you get fired. The TWU didn't fire him, they notified HR that he was not holding up the provisions of the CBA.

When they aboragate the CBA does that mean we no longer have to pay this worthless union. At least there will be one good thing that comes out of this.

Overpeed has to be one of the golden ATD boys. His concessions for jobs can only mean he is on the six figure ATD payrole scared he may sent back and actually have to earn a living. I still dont understand how we let these individuals rob us of two hours pay a month for the "concessions, so I can keep my six figure salary, for jobs mentality."

 

[Buck]

And to maintain that the TWU kept pay and benefits at certain levels since 2003, is just an excuse.

On the Charlie Rose interview with Bob Crandall, he maintains that he would have filed bankruptcy with the rest of the legacy carriers.

The bankruptcy has just been postponed through the "kindness" of Arpey and the ignorance of his marionette.

 

[TWU informer]

Not everybody, AA stayed in house.

Let's do the math. Working at AA for $33/hour, accruing pension service, and still maintain retiree medical prefunding at TUL/MCI/AFW and UAL SFO having your work outsourced to China and looking for a new job, at NW work outsourced looking for a new job, or working at AS... yep you guessed it looking for a new job. Making $33/hour versus unemployment and looking for a new job...$33/hour is more than next to nothing.

The TWA and AA AMTs that were laid off were a direct result of the economic downturn and their jobs were NOT outsourced which is completely different than UA, NW, and AS where their work was outsourced and was the reason they were laid off. I do know the truth and am far from being deceitful. AA did put a SiS package and extended benefits to all those RIF'd several times. Get your facts straight first before posting.

Rick,
Lets do a little fact search.

Myself and others have worked under TWU negotiated concessions for over 8 years.

Meanwhile, because of AMFA drives on AA property you have made over $100,000.00 per year.

Who lost and who gained?

Your pay has gone up while your job is about to be outsourced. And that is under the TWU and you claim AMFA does.

Most of us brought skill to the table upon employment by AA,

You brought nothing but a birth certificate showing you are related to a former employee,

btw, when your job gets outsourced, do you get to remain a $100,000.00 per year organizer? Or do ou hit the street with the rest of your TWU shafted brohters?

 

[TWU informer]

It's a closed shop. They are TWU represented mechanics.

And open minded people are the best kind of people. When presented the facts as they are and not as they are distorted, they will make a good decision. To stay with the TWU and be an active part of the TWU/IBT alliance.

Please tell us a little more about this TWU/IBT alliance you speak of and what that means to us, today, here is Tulsa?