JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[bob@las-AA]

Multi employer plans are just not good. I read some stuff from financial people and the remarks were negative. A lot of people at LAA are quite senior and would have no hope of building anything with the IAMPF. I thought it was a good thing that the LUS people got to save their pensions with the IAMPF but hopefully it is a choice for the LAA people. The numbers you mentioned Bob were alarming. $600 after 35 years?

This was using the IAM pension calculator on the IAM site. I do agree that everyone over the age of 50, would earn nothing worthwhile. I'm 53, and have no use of it. Moving the membership to the IAMPF is a dangerous nuclear option in my opinion.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Hey listen I really need to get new glasses I'll admit, but still don't think I'd miss something like Ready Reserve being proposed.
And many of the other 11 negotiators don't wear bad glasses or glasses at all.
Look out AA the Ready Reserve Boogie Man is hiding under our beds.
BOO!!!!!! Ha Ha Gotcha.

You are such an iam pollyanna just because you are too bitter at your own local.

Look, our 2 labor organizations truly suck. Both of them. The reason why they suck is because their contracts are incredibly pathetic. GM went bankrupt but hourly workers there top out over 30 dollars already after 7 years, and they start over $17. The bonus they received just from ratifying was $8,000. They barely pay health care and they regained a much better pension than us. Some hourly gm workers are now over $40.

Our 2 unions blow. I know the iam does. Whether its aerospace and airline vs auto....blue collar auto workers kick our arse. I wish the iam and twu werent jurisdicted in this industry cuz they destroyed it.

And the iampf absolutely sucks. If you cant wrap your little brain around that then you are very very dumb.

 

[WeAAsles]

You are such an iam pollyanna just because you are too bitter at your own local.
Look, our 2 labor organizations truly suck. Both of them. The reason why they suck is because their contracts are incredibly pathetic. GM went bankrupt but hourly workers there top out over 30 dollars already after 7 years, and they start over $17. The bonus they received just from ratifying was $8,000. They barely pay health care and they regained a much better pension than us. Some hourly gm workers are now over $40.
Our 2 unions blow. I know the iam does. Whether its aerospace and airline vs auto....blue collar auto workers kick our arse. I wish the iam and twu werent jurisdicted in this industry cuz they destroyed it.
And the iampf absolutely sucks. If you cant wrap your little brain around that then you are very very dumb.

You sir are a weirdo. Plain and simple.

Weirdo.

 

[bob@las-AA]

Pension info
FT $1.15 = $51.91
PT $0.75= $37.93

Would you please offer some method or formula as to how a monthly dollar figure can be developed. You spout numbers, but how dose someone get a monthly or even a total benefit from this!

 

[P. REZ]

Would you please offer some method or formula as to how a monthly dollar figure can be developed. You spout numbers, but how dose someone get a monthly or even a total benefit from this!

Read post 2464, multiply number of years in pension times $51.91. If 10 years working at least 1601 hours each year would give you $519.10 per month at retirement under current LUS numbers. Work 20 years $1038.20 per month.

P. Rez

 

[bob@las-AA]

Read post 2464, multiply number of years in pension times $51.91. If 10 years working at least 1601 hours each year would give you $519.10 per month at retirement under current LUS numbers. Work 20 years $1038.20 per month.
P. Rez

Thank you, the numbers you offer are vastly different from the estimate on the IAM site. How long is the vesting period? At LAA your first year of service did not count, but if you didn't go off payroll for 5 years, you were vested.

 

[P. REZ]

Thank you, the numbers you offer are vastly different from the estimate on the IAM site. How long is the vesting period? At LAA your first year of service did not count, but if you didn't go off payroll for 5 years, you were vested.

Vesting period is 5 years, but when America West employees were brought into plan our 401k vesting counted towards 5 years vesting period. In other words, I was vested when I first entered plan.

 

[P. REZ]

Are midweek teasers updates thoughts prohibited?

No.

 

[AANOTOK]

No.

Space saver, thanks!

 

[Talos]

 
Not so simple... let's not have any illusions if not for unions, we would be making anything close to $24/hour to sling bags, and Delta does it only to keep the unions from taking a foothold.  I figure Swissport guys are making around $12/hours, and the difference would be $480 per week full-time?  Over a month $2,000 extra and it cost you $80/month?  Sounds like a bargain to me.

The job has gotten tougher as the airlines have eliminated most of the decent jobs that senior people used to get. 12$ an hour is laughable for this work.Sometimes the bags sling you. If I was told I could only make that for this work I'd tell the company to shove it up their ass sideways. I don't think these contract stations do very good work from some of the flights I see come in. You get what you pay for and high turnover and bad service is costly.

 

[P. REZ]

I have been thinking about this for awhile... in a sense, isn't this a reduction in our compensation of our JCBA between US and AW? If I voted based upon the whole package, which included some expectation of a future pension benefit, then to have it cut, of course, that's an unexpected reduction in our compensation as we voted upon.
 
Now if the Company did this (as in reducing our hourly pay even alittle bit), we would be outraged and greviances would be flying.  However, let the union pension do it and we just say, "Oh well, let's hope it doesn't happen again," especialy as new laws allow current retirees to have their pensions cut, as well?
 
I just don't know if I can trust the IAMPF not do future cuts as the expected pay-outs are less than the current value of the pensions assets.

I would take the pension (my opinion) still. I just do the math and without a crystal ball, can't justify giving up that kind of money. Read my post 2464.

P. Rez

 

[Jester]

This was using the IAM pension calculator on the IAM site. I do agree that everyone over the age of 50, would earn nothing worthwhile. I'm 53, and have no use of it. Moving the membership to the IAMPF is a dangerous nuclear option in my opinion.

Actually, the closer a person to retirement would be more likely to benefit from a pension vs. an 401K.  For example, 10 years under the pension to retirement would equal $6,229 per year ($51.91/month x 10 years of service x 12 months in a year).  Assuming one lives 15 years after retirement with a 8% rate of return (discount rate), it would have net present value at retirement of $53,317.
 
In comparison, 3% matching on average income over 10 years (keep the math simple), would be $3,600 annually ($60,000 x 6%), and earning 8% returns would equal $52,152, which is pretty close to the NPV of the pension at retirement or nearly equal in value.
 
As the time horizon increases, then the magic of compounding interest kicks in. 
 
Use the same numbers but with a 5 year time horizon instead and the pension NPV would be $26,663 vs. a 401K would have a value of only $21,120. However, the pension gives the additional advantage of not out living one's 401K if instead of living 15 years after retirement, but lives 35 years instead.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Actually, the closer a person to retirement would be more likely to benefit from a pension vs. an 401K.  For example, 10 years under the pension to retirement would equal $6,229 per year ($51.91/month x 10 years of service x 12 months in a year).  Assuming one lives 15 years after retirement with a 8% rate of return (discount rate), it would have net present value at retirement of $53,317.
 
In comparison, 3% matching on average income over 10 years (keep the math simple), would be $3,600 annually ($60,000 x 6%), and earning 8% returns would equal $52,152, which is pretty close to the NPV of the pension at retirement or nearly equal in value.
 
As the time horizon increases, then the magic of compounding interest kicks in. 
 
Use the same numbers but with a 5 year time horizon instead and the pension NPV would be $26,663 vs. a 401K would have a value of only $21,120. However, the pension gives the additional advantage of not out living one's 401K if instead of living 15 years after retirement, but lives 35 years instead.

What if you used the same $1.15 company contriubution [4.5%] for the 401k?

At any rate, we can do the math all day, the health of the IAMPF is conditioned on increasing the membership in it. Out of 200,000, less than 100,000 are actually participating. That's a big harness that is a weight around my pension that I don't want. The math also says that they will have to address future benefits within the next 5 years to further limit benefits.

I remember we did the math on the $81, back in 2003, and that math is now cut in half by the stroke of a Trustee pen. And, the new pension law says that the trustee can come after my pension after I even retire. So many holes in the floor.

 

[Kev3188]

Vesting period is 5 years, but when America West employees were brought into plan our 401k vesting counted towards 5 years vesting period. In other words, I was vested when I first entered plan.

  

That's what they did for us at NW as well. Previous years of service counted towards vesting, but not for service credit.

The job has gotten tougher as the airlines have eliminated most of the decent jobs that senior people used to get. 12$ an hour is laughable for this work.Sometimes the bags sling you. If I was told I could only make that for this work I'd tell the company to shove it up their ass sideways. I don't think these contract stations do very good work from some of the flights I see come in. You get what you pay for and high turnover and bad service is costly.

I have DGS right next door. I see the scenario you've described play out a lot...


  

What if you used the same $1.15 company contriubution [4.5%] for the 401k?At any rate, we can do the math all day, the health of the IAMPF is conditioned on increasing the membership in it. Out of 200,000, less than 100,000 are actually participating. That's a big harness that is a weight around my pension that I don't want. The math also says that they will have to address future benefits within the next 5 years to further limit benefits.I remember we did the math on the $81, back in 2003, and that math is now cut in half by the stroke of a Trustee pen. And, the new pension law says that the trustee can come after my pension after I even retire. So many holes in the floor.

Since no one is clairvoyant, if the possibility of losing money exists, I'd rather it at least come directly to me first instead of being held over my head. You can also change the terms of a 401k contribution/match, but any money accrued up to that point is already in your hands.

 

[WeAAsles]

  
Since no one is clairvoyant, if the possibility of losing money exists, I'd rather it at least come directly to me first instead of being held over my head. You can also change the terms of a 401k contribution/match, but any money accrued up to that point is already in your hands.

Your money is NOT in your hands until you leave the company and want to draw on it. Whether that be Retirement, left the company of your own accord, or were fired. If you have the best market crystal ball in the World and it's telling you that there's going to be a Market catastrophe, you can take a loan against your 401k and pop it under a pillow to try and safeguard it. But there are restrictions to being able to take a loan (you need a reason) to draw out the max allowable amount (which I think may be 50%) And if you don't put that back before you retire there's an extra 10% penalty attached on top of the regular taxes you'd have to pay if you're not putting in post tax.

You seem to think being able to protect your retirement accounts is an easy proposition? And you and I don't have the means to open up that Cayman account in the bank across from where Romney has his boat docked either.

And are those Pensions under the same risks of a possible market collapse? Yep.