Jetblue AMTs AMFA?

JimmyBop

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May 29, 2014
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If Jetblue M&R go AMFA shouldn't they get more seniority? Keep their PTO instead of traditional vacation like at Spirit? They are bigger and are part of the acquiring carrier. Is dovetailing fair for them? Is it fair for Spirit AMT's to get more seniority because they are AMFA and have already started paying dues or initiation fees?
 

ThirdSeatHero

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If Jetblue & Spirit are both represented by AMFA at the time of the merger, then seniority integration would be governed by AMFA as the representatives of both groups. I'd suspect it would go more toward Date-of-Hire than dovetailing, as this all still falls under the auspices of the McCaskill-Bond statute, it requires mutual agreement otherwise arbitration

As for PTO or vacation, those are contractual issues and would be resolved during the negotiation of a joint CBA
 
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JimmyBop

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Jetblue has a fair amount of folks who started in other departments. DOH would cause a reshuffle within that group. I think they deserve more than Spirit but who knows. Plus, if the JetBlue side stays non-represented then AMFA would not have a 50% showing given their size. JetBlue AMTs may be better shopping elsewhere to not risk being dovetailed one for one or DOH.
 

ThirdSeatHero

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Why does Jetblue deserve more than Spirit? In the end, if both groups cannot reach agreement, theres arbitration, which all are entitled to regardless of who might represent them
 
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CorvetteMan

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If Jetblue & Spirit are both represented by AMFA at the time of the merger, then seniority integration would be governed by AMFA as the representatives of both groups. I'd suspect it would go more toward Date-of-Hire than dovetailing, as this all still falls under the auspices of the McCaskill-Bond statute, it requires mutual agreement otherwise arbitration

As for PTO or vacation, those are contractual issues and would be resolved during the negotiation of a joint CBA
Dovetail is date of hire in the classification.
 

ThirdSeatHero

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Dovetail is date of hire in the classification.

Dovetailing and Date-of-Hire are not the same

Why did WN deserve more then AirTran?

As I recall SWA MX position was that since AirTran MX gained such a financial windfall being immediately brought up to SWA pay levels that SWA MX wanted an equitable return in seniority.

I believe the SWA thread here still has all the postings and methodologies from that integration

Again, if either side is unhappy with the results, there is always arbitration ... Airtran must've been agreeable because it didn't go to arbitration
 
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CorvetteMan

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Dovetailing and Date-of-Hire are not the same



As I recall SWA MX position was that since AirTran MX gained such a financial windfall being immediately brought up to SWA pay levels that SWA MX wanted an equitable return in seniority.

I believe the SWA thread here still has all the postings and methodologies from that integration

Again, if either side is unhappy with the results, there is always arbitration ... Airtran must've been agreeable because it didn't go to arbitration
They didn’t go to arbitration as the IBT abandoned the AirTran guys.
And I’ve been in several airline mergers. “Economic Windfall” was never a parameter of seniority integration.
 
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JimmyBop

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May 29, 2014
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Dovetailing and Date-of-Hire are not the same



As I recall SWA MX position was that since AirTran MX gained such a financial windfall being immediately brought up to SWA pay levels that SWA MX wanted an equitable return in seniority.

I believe the SWA thread here still has all the postings and methodologies from that integration

Again, if either side is unhappy with the results, there is always arbitration ... Airtran must've been agreeable because it didn't go to arbitration
Are you saying that AMFA Vs. AMFA could go to arbitration? So Seeham Vs. Seeham? Seriously? Jetblue is bigger and the acquiring carrier. They deserve more.
 

ThirdSeatHero

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They didn’t go to arbitration as the IBT abandoned the AirTran guys.
And I’ve been in several airline mergers. “Economic Windfall” was never a parameter of seniority integration.

While its true the ibt abandoned them after it was clear they would lose representation, that didn't stop the Airtran mechanics from going to arbitration to settle seniority integration if they had wished to - they didn't - so they were obviously okay with what was presented.

I never said “Economic Windfall” was part of integration, I said i thought it was part of the SWA MX position
 
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ThirdSeatHero

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Are you saying that AMFA Vs. AMFA could go to arbitration? So Seeham Vs. Seeham? Seriously? Jetblue is bigger and the acquiring carrier. They deserve more.

If both were represented by AMFA at the time, and AMFA has a set merger policy, I doubt it could get to arbitration - they would just follow AMFA merger policy ... No, I don't know if AMFA has 1

If they don't have a set policy, then either side could take it to arbitration if they felt an arbitrator would give them a better deal ... for my part, I don't think the simple argument ... "my airline is bigger I want more" ... is gonna go very far
 
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SWAMECH

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Apr 26, 2005
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Dovetailing and Date-of-Hire are not the same



As I recall SWA MX position was that since AirTran MX gained such a financial windfall being immediately brought up to SWA pay levels that SWA MX wanted an equitable return in seniority.

I believe the SWA thread here still has all the postings and methodologies from that integration

Again, if either side is unhappy with the results, there is always arbitration ... Airtran must've been agreeable because it didn't go to arbitration

If both were represented by AMFA at the time, and AMFA has a set merger policy, I doubt it could get to arbitration - they would just follow AMFA merger policy ... No, I don't know if AMFA has 1

If they don't have a set policy, then either side could take it to arbitration if they felt an arbitrator would give them a better deal ... for my part, I don't think the simple argument ... "my airline is bigger I want more" ... is gonna go very far
Good morning TSH.
You are correct on your thoughts. With the huge financial windfall handed to most all mechanics at AT (some in other mechanic groups outside of Aircraft mechanics received upwards of $20-$30 increases) I even remember hearing a mechanic from AirTran bring that issue up at the nego table when we were all waiting for all parties to arrive to table.
And YES, per the new laws and regulations, if both parties have different representation or if even one of the two parties are not represented, BOTH sides have to come to an agreement, or it would then go to binding arbitration. In our case between SWA (AMFA) and AirTran (ibt) the AT mechanics were so anxious to get the pay they basically told the teamsters to pack sand and to agree to the 4 yr. diff. so they could reap the pay rewards ASAP. IF they would have fought the 4 yr. diff. in binding arb. it would have taken years to get it done over binding arb. and all the court cases and scheduling required to get it all done, and this is why they came to an agreement so quickly after AMFA and SWA finally notified them that YES they would immediately go to the SWA pay scale with no wait time once we were cert as a single carrier.
Yes, AMFA does have merger language in the constitution when both sides are represented by AMFA (which is exactly why I have been recommending JetBlue's Mechanics to quickly get their card drive done for AMFA prior to any combo, otherwise it is usually the represented side that gets the most perks out of it in the long run and all past history has shown as such.
Also correct on the size issue you brought up. Just because an airline is larger does not mean, nor give any more favoritism, it really does come down to representation. JB Mechanics would be very wise in getting AMFA in before merger nego's as that would be the fairest, and equal integration available to them, period. Spirit was very smart in getting represented prior to the merger with JB.
Final yes, you are correct about ALL the nego's and info is on these threads from start to finish.
I remember those nego's like it were yesterday and the teamsters completely mis, if not non-represented the AT fellas so bad that their nego cmte @ the table pretty much fired them right in front of AMFA and SWA negotiators. It was a very embarrassing time for the teamsters once again when going up against AMFA @ SWA. The AT nego cmte took full control away from the teamsters and submitted that they demand a vote for the 4 yr diff to get on SWA payroll so quickly with no hesitations promised from the co. to get it done. That vote passed the AT Mechanics by somewhere around 82%-86% plus if I remember correctly, overwhelming was voted in by both sides and why it went so smoothly once the teamsters were sent packing from nego's.
FYI: I do believe AMFA's integrations are dovetail driven by cat seniority, date of hire, and or date of birth used as tie braker. I am calling this out by memory so I could be a little off, but you get the idea the way AMFA representing both sides would do. Either way, both sides have to agree, or it goes to Binding arbitration.

Hey TSH,
There was a UAL mechanic that started a thread for AMFA card drive @ UAL for replacing the teamsters there, you got any info? You hearing of the progress so far?? Pls keep us posted in the industry, would love to see you guys back with AMFA Representation...
 

SWAMECH

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Apr 26, 2005
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TSH;
OOPS! My bad, it looks as if you have already posted an update over in the thread for the card drive. So if so pls disregard the part about the AMFA card drive @ UAL...
 
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JimmyBop

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Good morning TSH.
You are correct on your thoughts. With the huge financial windfall handed to most all mechanics at AT (some in other mechanic groups outside of Aircraft mechanics received upwards of $20-$30 increases) I even remember hearing a mechanic from AirTran bring that issue up at the nego table when we were all waiting for all parties to arrive to table.
And YES, per the new laws and regulations, if both parties have different representation or if even one of the two parties are not represented, BOTH sides have to come to an agreement, or it would then go to binding arbitration. In our case between SWA (AMFA) and AirTran (ibt) the AT mechanics were so anxious to get the pay they basically told the teamsters to pack sand and to agree to the 4 yr. diff. so they could reap the pay rewards ASAP. IF they would have fought the 4 yr. diff. in binding arb. it would have taken years to get it done over binding arb. and all the court cases and scheduling required to get it all done, and this is why they came to an agreement so quickly after AMFA and SWA finally notified them that YES they would immediately go to the SWA pay scale with no wait time once we were cert as a single carrier.
Yes, AMFA does have merger language in the constitution when both sides are represented by AMFA (which is exactly why I have been recommending JetBlue's Mechanics to quickly get their card drive done for AMFA prior to any combo, otherwise it is usually the represented side that gets the most perks out of it in the long run and all past history has shown as such.
Also correct on the size issue you brought up. Just because an airline is larger does not mean, nor give any more favoritism, it really does come down to representation. JB Mechanics would be very wise in getting AMFA in before merger nego's as that would be the fairest, and equal integration available to them, period. Spirit was very smart in getting represented prior to the merger with JB.
Final yes, you are correct about ALL the nego's and info is on these threads from start to finish.
I remember those nego's like it were yesterday and the teamsters completely mis, if not non-represented the AT fellas so bad that their nego cmte @ the table pretty much fired them right in front of AMFA and SWA negotiators. It was a very embarrassing time for the teamsters once again when going up against AMFA @ SWA. The AT nego cmte took full control away from the teamsters and submitted that they demand a vote for the 4 yr diff to get on SWA payroll so quickly with no hesitations promised from the co. to get it done. That vote passed the AT Mechanics by somewhere around 82%-86% plus if I remember correctly, overwhelming was voted in by both sides and why it went so smoothly once the teamsters were sent packing from nego's.
FYI: I do believe AMFA's integrations are dovetail driven by cat seniority, date of hire, and or date of birth used as tie braker. I am calling this out by memory so I could be a little off, but you get the idea the way AMFA representing both sides would do. Either way, both sides have to agree, or it goes to Binding arbitration.

Hey TSH,
There was a UAL mechanic that started a thread for AMFA card drive @ UAL for replacing the teamsters there, you got any info? You hearing of the progress so far?? Pls keep us posted in the industry, would love to see you guys back with AMFA Representation...
Bullsh!t! Everything you posted here. Worse than a used car salesman!
 

ThirdSeatHero

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Bullsh!t! Everything you posted here. Worse than a used car salesman!

Are you saying what he posted was untrue? If so, then how - please explain.

Do you work at SWA? Or perhaps did you work at the former Airtran?

If you insist "Everything" was untrue you should be able to easily point out how and why.