LGA Fleet Service
Veteran
SVQLBA said:
CO doesn't have enough widebodies to throw at the NYC-FLA bloodbath.I'd expect to see some of the recently acquired TZ 753's in some of those markets in the not too distant future.
Jetblue To Begin Ewr
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CO doesn't have enough widebodies to throw at the NYC-FLA bloodbath.I'd expect to see some of the recently acquired TZ 753's in some of those markets in the not too distant future.
luv2fly
Veteran
Whadayano said:
I don't think Song has been "running" from the competition. As a matter of fact, when JB expands, Song usually does too.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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B6 is apparently taking this tact because they thought they have been unsuccessful at convincing the Feds to give them another couple handsful of slots to serve LGA just as they did at JFK. Since they will be limited to a token presence at LGA, they have no choice but to go after EWR.
Song could not be successful at EWR because it is a legacy carrier hub with the limitations on pricing that puts on DL - a limitation that doesn't exist for LCCs that have no major airline relationship. Delta/Song will still be the dominant legacy carrier in NYC-Florida with service from JFK and LGA while B6 will go for EWR and JFK. AA and CO will both be significant players, but from only one airport - except to MIA for AA.
Song could not be successful at EWR because it is a legacy carrier hub with the limitations on pricing that puts on DL - a limitation that doesn't exist for LCCs that have no major airline relationship. Delta/Song will still be the dominant legacy carrier in NYC-Florida with service from JFK and LGA while B6 will go for EWR and JFK. AA and CO will both be significant players, but from only one airport - except to MIA for AA.
U85 you are right and I'm wrong about Song at EWR--not only is it only 2 flights, they end soon if not already to allow JFK-SFO. As for a substitute for LGA, Worldtraveler, I think that there the goal was purely to hit Song. But the EWR mkt is a totally seperate mkt (almost) from JFK--B6 says their customers zip codes drop sharply once you cross 5th Ave., esp. in lower Manhattan, and their NJ zips are very few. I don't think CO will upguage as you're costs per flight go up, so unless they can get LF's on 757's as high as on their 37's, they would make less/lose more--Song carries about the same number of pax a plane as B6 to Fl, but with larger plane have a higher LF breakeaven. Not a model to emulate, economically.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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JetBlue is looking to dominate the New York market, plain and simple. DL is the only airline that has mounted operations from all three NYC airports to Florida. B6 wanted to fly from LGA to Florida and have succeeded at getting FLL but that is probably all they will have unless they buy slots. Apparently DL decided separately from B6 that they could not spread themselves so thin in NYC and have thus decided to retrench to JFK and LGA for their Florida operations. B6 couldn't have come up with their plan in the short week or so since DL decided to drop EWRMCO - and I don't think B6 would have cared if DL/Song was in the market anyway. If you think B6 was out for DL/Song because they dominated the NYC-Florida market, then yes, B6 has had DL/Song in its sights for five years now.
Remember, though, that DL has significantly increased its transcon service this summer and will do even more from New England this fall. I sorta doubt that you have heard the last word from DL/Song on NYC service either. DL has yet to announce its winter service plans so it is very possible DL has waited to see B6's plans before announcing their own.
Remember, though, that DL has significantly increased its transcon service this summer and will do even more from New England this fall. I sorta doubt that you have heard the last word from DL/Song on NYC service either. DL has yet to announce its winter service plans so it is very possible DL has waited to see B6's plans before announcing their own.
continental is gonna kill em . mark my words. neelman shouls stick with jfk. they are getting to big for their bridges. don't get me wrong . i like Jetblue but ithink that they are growing up way to fast. soon they will be just like a legacy carrier with Directv. i jumpseat on them alot and the inflight crew members who came from other carriers are already bitching and moaning about alot of things. they say they are tired of doing redeye tuns to the west. they say jetblue does what ever it wants with them. and they are getting sick of it. i might just be a handfull of whiners but everytime i ride on them i am getting the same thing. they say their scheduling is crap and that they do not know what they are doing. they do say however that neelman is a great leader. i am telling you don't be surprised if a union formes at jetblue in the distant future.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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You bet your bottom dollar that CO will fight back... but it will hurt them in the process just as it has DL and US who have fought more LCC battles on the east coast during the past 4 years.
Testimony in Washington yesterday by several industry analysts was that legacy airlines are narrowing the cost gap with LCCs and that LCCs will not be able to grow at the rate they have for the past several years. At the same time, LCC employees will be less inclined to prostitute themselves for a company that gives them very little of the total improved value of the company in return for their efforts.
WN, B6, and FL are hardly toast but sledding won't be quite as smooth as it's been for the past few years. Some of the legacy airlines are in a position to fight back now.
Testimony in Washington yesterday by several industry analysts was that legacy airlines are narrowing the cost gap with LCCs and that LCCs will not be able to grow at the rate they have for the past several years. At the same time, LCC employees will be less inclined to prostitute themselves for a company that gives them very little of the total improved value of the company in return for their efforts.
WN, B6, and FL are hardly toast but sledding won't be quite as smooth as it's been for the past few years. Some of the legacy airlines are in a position to fight back now.
usairways85 said:
Song is ending all service to Newark 6 September 2005. They probably saw this - the lack of lowfare EWR-Florida service - as a place to step in. With the exception of USA 3000 and AA's MIA-EWR flight, CO has the market to themselves.
As I also mentioned on the CO forum, Barger (COO and I think Pres of B6) ran EWR for CO before going to Jetblue, so knows what he's getting into, as much as anyone in this crazy business.
runway4
Advanced
WorldTraveler said:
With oil having hit the $60 mark last week, I don't think the legacy carriers are in any better position to fight back. Sure, the LCCs are affected by those same prices, but who can grin and bear it longer?
runway4
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Seems to me the B6 operation at JFK is saturated now, and a certain carrier's slots at LGA haven't been put on the block like many have anticipated. If B6 wants to keep growing its NY markets (which some in the investment community question), it has to go to EWR. I don't think they are as concerned about what Song does or CO's response as they are about continuing to stimulate demand and eaking out a profit on NY-FLA trips where others are going to have to fill the plane at a loss.El Gato said:
CO has built a huge OnePass base at EWR, but in such price-sensitive markets as NY-FLA, is that really going to matter to that great an extent? Trips out West and into business markets with highly-acclaimed BusinessFirst product differentiation, OnePass affinity... now that is something B6 would need to be a little more careful about (although they seem to be doing just fine against the majors at JFK and BOS in the transcon arena). Best leave some of the hub raiding at EWR to the EMB-190s, IMHO.
I have friends in Jersey that have schlepped to JFK for B6 flights who loved it and would do it again, and other friends in Jersey who haven't made the schlepp but are very excited to now try B6. The word-of-mouth in the tri-state area is still outstanding, regardless of some grumblings I've heard about horrible waits for a gate at JFK. I live in Brooklyn and have no problem making the trip to EWR (crossing the S.I. Expwy is less fun than eating glass, however) -- but nine times out of ten, CO is more expensive -- sometimes ridiculously so -- so I stay on this side of the river.
Of course, EWR is only going to compound B6's recent ontime troubles.
Consider BWI? Eegads, no... then again, I would have thought we'd have seen more B6 action at IAD by now.
runway4 said:
The novelty of JetBlue and the introductory fares convinced us to try them in mid October. We're actually departing before the Tampa flights begin, so we're flying to MCO and flying back from TPA. I personally would have preferred that JetBlue try service from ABE, where parking is so much easier. I was really amazed to see when booking the flights that legroom for the back 2/3 of their 320's is 34". If we have a decent experience on our first trip, we'll most likely be flying JetBlue several times per year.
I should mention that I did find slightly lower fares on Continental for the dates we're flying, but I really wanted to try JetBlue. Years ago when People Express began service, passengers booked on competitors who matched the fares. I want to see JetBlue succeed in Newark.
I think too much is being made of B6's presence at JFK and LGA when it comes to this move. For some in NYC, certainly this represents another departure option, but for most in NJ, this is the only one of the three airports they use. It's simply too difficult (distance, traffic, tolls, etc) for many in NJ to get to LGA or JFK.
New Jersey is a NEW market for B6. It's a new market with lots of O&D traffic and high income levels. It's also a relatively cheap start-up market since much of the marketing work is already done (NYC TV, radio, print, etc). Assuming the on-ground logistic problems can be handled at EWR, this seems like another smart move by Neeleman & Co.
As far as how they'll be received -- they're still the darling of the industry and still play the "hometown airline" card pretty well. I believe there's also a pent-up demand in NJ. They've heard all about how "wonderful" B6 is in their local media for years - yet most Jerseyans have not crossed over to JFK to sample the product. Now it's coming to them.
Seems to me like it will be a success because there's not a lot that CO will be able to do to affect any of the things I mentioned above.
New Jersey is a NEW market for B6. It's a new market with lots of O&D traffic and high income levels. It's also a relatively cheap start-up market since much of the marketing work is already done (NYC TV, radio, print, etc). Assuming the on-ground logistic problems can be handled at EWR, this seems like another smart move by Neeleman & Co.
As far as how they'll be received -- they're still the darling of the industry and still play the "hometown airline" card pretty well. I believe there's also a pent-up demand in NJ. They've heard all about how "wonderful" B6 is in their local media for years - yet most Jerseyans have not crossed over to JFK to sample the product. Now it's coming to them.
Seems to me like it will be a success because there's not a lot that CO will be able to do to affect any of the things I mentioned above.
I think the point that JBLU is not starting any transcons being a sign of caution on B6's part is a good one. Mileage matters more there, and they proved with AWA (now out of the transcon market) that they were willing to endure a brutal flight.
