Retread must find it hard to walk with that BIG chip on his shoulder. I guess it''s time for us to kneel down and pray to him too.
Jets for Jobs??
- Thread starter smfav8r
- Start date
I stand by what I said. Our jobs have and are being replaced. Since when is a 70-90 seat AC an RJ? Soon there will be 140 seat RJS. As far as my attitude in YOUR cockpit, your jumping the gun pal . The Comair guys are doing the same thing to Delta mainline. However, I am sure thats ok with you. As far as me getting the facts, the Subs are doing to the WO what the WO did to us. Do not worry though there will be another low bidder to continue the cycle. I have been making a buck flying for 25 years and have never seen an enviroment like this before. When I flew for the commuters I wanted to grt hired by the majors, I never thought I was entitled like the likes of you guys. It is a legal way to scab so go for it. You are flying our jets paid for by the furloughed pilot and our pension. Brothers your not.
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On 4/9/2003 1:25:08 PM N628AU wrote:
WSurf,
Is there anyone that has the exact accounting that the W/O carriers that proves PDT, ALG, and PSA had actually been a profitable operation? I have yet to see it. Say what you want about Dave and upper management, but I highly doubt they would have cut you guys 20% just for kicks if the carriers indeed remained profitable. Last I heard, the accounting of the W/O carriers is very convoluted and difficult to understand. I am not trying to flame anyone, I just want to see the numbers.
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I've tried to find stuff in the past but keep getting the run around. Apparently we are accounted for in some very tricky ways. And some believe that if it was seen in its true form that it would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that enough evidence exists to win a single carrier status between the WO's.On 4/9/2003 1:25:08 PM N628AU wrote:
WSurf,
Is there anyone that has the exact accounting that the W/O carriers that proves PDT, ALG, and PSA had actually been a profitable operation? I have yet to see it. Say what you want about Dave and upper management, but I highly doubt they would have cut you guys 20% just for kicks if the carriers indeed remained profitable. Last I heard, the accounting of the W/O carriers is very convoluted and difficult to understand. I am not trying to flame anyone, I just want to see the numbers.
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On 4/9/2003 1:17:43 PM retread wrote:
I stand by what I said. Our jobs have and are being replaced. Since when is a 70-90 seat AC an RJ? Soon there will be 140 seat RJS. As far as my attitude in YOUR cockpit, your jumping the gun pal . The Comair guys are doing the same thing to Delta mainline. However, I am sure thats ok with you. As far as me getting the facts, the Subs are doing to the WO what the WO did to us. Do not worry though there will be another low bidder to continue the cycle. I have been making a buck flying for 25 years and have never seen an enviroment like this before. When I flew for the commuters I wanted to grt hired by the majors, I never thought I was entitled like the likes of you guys. It is a legal way to scab so go for it. You are flying our jets paid for by the furloughed pilot and our pension. Brothers your not.
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Like most of your fellow mainline pilots, your thinking and understanding of the situation is flawed. And because of that mangament will continue to get away with outsourcing.On 4/9/2003 1:17:43 PM retread wrote:
I stand by what I said. Our jobs have and are being replaced. Since when is a 70-90 seat AC an RJ? Soon there will be 140 seat RJS. As far as my attitude in YOUR cockpit, your jumping the gun pal . The Comair guys are doing the same thing to Delta mainline. However, I am sure thats ok with you. As far as me getting the facts, the Subs are doing to the WO what the WO did to us. Do not worry though there will be another low bidder to continue the cycle. I have been making a buck flying for 25 years and have never seen an enviroment like this before. When I flew for the commuters I wanted to grt hired by the majors, I never thought I was entitled like the likes of you guys. It is a legal way to scab so go for it. You are flying our jets paid for by the furloughed pilot and our pension. Brothers your not.
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It is because of your pilot groups lack of vision and ignorance that we are in this mess. And to prove your ignorace let me ask you, What jets are the WO flying?
To even say the WO "underbid" mainline? You are freakin clueless.
Mesa pilots are scabs who refuse to admit that they are the reason for the pay reduction in the regional industry. Any pilot would would consider working for that flea bag outfit has no self worth nor respect. If we all would come together and stand against the pirates who hijack our pay scales perhaps this would be an industry worth hanging around in. Again, scabs complaining about their herpes, go figure.
- Thread Starter
- #21
For all my "Brothers" out there...I was furloughed from U in Jan02....As I understood it, the JFJ program was designed to give the company the oportunity to operate RJ''s at WO and code share carriers to compete with the likes of Delta! (which sold the farm a long time ago) In return for the pilot group giving up all the RJ''s....the furloughed U pilots would be given the opportunity to go fly these aircraft at a preditermined wage....which I thought was first year captain pay...maybe this is only at the WO''s..and maybe it''s not at all....regardless...the bickering between Express and Mainline is STUPID!!!!! If you want to start blaming someone for outsourcing of jobs??
Start by looking at Delta and ALPA....Many years ago, flying for a non-sched, An old rEAL captain saw one of those new shiny ComAir RJ''s....he told me then that those RJ''s were going to adversely effect my carreer!!!!! I don''t think he even knew how correct he was!!!! The job goes to the lowest bidder folks.....take a look at MCO these days, there sure aren''t as many ComAir jets running around....they''ve been replaced by Chataqua....hmmmm....what''s next??? A SCOPE clause at ComAir??? I started this whole posting just to find out if it is worth it take a JFJ offer??? If I have to listen to this in the cockpit......I''ll stay with freight!!!!
Start by looking at Delta and ALPA....Many years ago, flying for a non-sched, An old rEAL captain saw one of those new shiny ComAir RJ''s....he told me then that those RJ''s were going to adversely effect my carreer!!!!! I don''t think he even knew how correct he was!!!! The job goes to the lowest bidder folks.....take a look at MCO these days, there sure aren''t as many ComAir jets running around....they''ve been replaced by Chataqua....hmmmm....what''s next??? A SCOPE clause at ComAir??? I started this whole posting just to find out if it is worth it take a JFJ offer??? If I have to listen to this in the cockpit......I''ll stay with freight!!!!
20/20 hindsight.
None of this would be happening if the TP's and RJ's were mainline aircraft. No WO's, no outsourcing, no j4j, no flow through, no class warfare; not even the conception thereof- just an airline where hiring is into the right seat of a Beech 1900 and retirement is from the left seat of an A330. The refusal to combine the fleets years ago and the continued insistence on the (artificial) segregation of ML vs "commuter" flying is what created and continues to perpetuate this slow-motion train wreck.
None of this would be happening if the TP's and RJ's were mainline aircraft. No WO's, no outsourcing, no j4j, no flow through, no class warfare; not even the conception thereof- just an airline where hiring is into the right seat of a Beech 1900 and retirement is from the left seat of an A330. The refusal to combine the fleets years ago and the continued insistence on the (artificial) segregation of ML vs "commuter" flying is what created and continues to perpetuate this slow-motion train wreck.
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On 4/9/2003 2:06:05 PM LukeSkywalker wrote:
Retread must find it hard to walk with that BIG chip on his shoulder. I guess it''s time for us to kneel down and pray to him too.
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When you kneel you know what you can kiss. The WO were offered the J4J program remember! However, the greed got the best of you because you wanted our RJS without our pilots. You could of had half of them. We had a scope that protected us from this crap. When that was given away the vultures like you started salivating. Same type of a scope like some of you guys want to stop the freedoms and republics of the industry. A chip is an understatement. Take a look around, or are you intoxiated from the kool aid?On 4/9/2003 2:06:05 PM LukeSkywalker wrote:
Retread must find it hard to walk with that BIG chip on his shoulder. I guess it''s time for us to kneel down and pray to him too.
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On 4/10/2003 9:03:41 AM Furloughedagain wrote:
When Comair purchased the very first regional jet (and just what "region" is that, the Western Hemisphere?) ALPA should have experienced an earth-shattering wake-up call... but rather than write scope language right then and there which would have brought ALL airline pilots into the fold, they chose to protect what they have -- keeping the so-called "regional" pilots away from their DC9's and 737-200s.
The true solution, at the time, would have been to welcome them to the family. When you got hired at ABC Airlines, you would have started as a Saab 340 or Dash 8 or Jetstream 3100 First Officer and you would move through the ranks as your seniority allowed. But ALPA wasnt bright enough to draw that conclusion.
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On 4/10/2003 9:03:41 AM Furloughedagain wrote:
When Comair purchased the very first regional jet (and just what "region" is that, the Western Hemisphere?) ALPA should have experienced an earth-shattering wake-up call... but rather than write scope language right then and there which would have brought ALL airline pilots into the fold, they chose to protect what they have -- keeping the so-called "regional" pilots away from their DC9's and 737-200s.
The true solution, at the time, would have been to welcome them to the family. When you got hired at ABC Airlines, you would have started as a Saab 340 or Dash 8 or Jetstream 3100 First Officer and you would move through the ranks as your seniority allowed. But ALPA wasnt bright enough to draw that conclusion.
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*BING*
retread wrote:
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When you kneel you know what you can kiss. The WO were offered the J4J program remember! However, the greed got the best of you because you wanted our RJS without our pilots. You could of had half of them. We had a scope that protected us from this crap.
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Once again you show your complete ingorance of any facts concerning J4J''s.
All 3 WO''s ratified and agreed to J4J''s long ago. PDT agreed to J4J''s about last July or Aug, before Airways went into bankruptcy. There was no greed as you contend, we ratifed what Mainline ALPA/U management demanded.
You say "we could have had half of them", half of them what?
Do you see any jets at the WO? NO, Any orders or even talk of getting any in the future? No... And if we do get all these great jets that are supposedly going to save USAir, we get the privelege of having 50% of our pilots end up on the street. So there is lots of pain and "unfairness" to go around and that is the aviation industry since deregulation.
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When you kneel you know what you can kiss. The WO were offered the J4J program remember! However, the greed got the best of you because you wanted our RJS without our pilots. You could of had half of them. We had a scope that protected us from this crap.
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Once again you show your complete ingorance of any facts concerning J4J''s.
All 3 WO''s ratified and agreed to J4J''s long ago. PDT agreed to J4J''s about last July or Aug, before Airways went into bankruptcy. There was no greed as you contend, we ratifed what Mainline ALPA/U management demanded.
You say "we could have had half of them", half of them what?
Do you see any jets at the WO? NO, Any orders or even talk of getting any in the future? No... And if we do get all these great jets that are supposedly going to save USAir, we get the privelege of having 50% of our pilots end up on the street. So there is lots of pain and "unfairness" to go around and that is the aviation industry since deregulation.
Furloughedagain
Senior
Bovine Fecal Matter!!
This problem goes back a decade before J4J was ever uttered.
ALPA created the regional jet problem. They dropped the ball.
The instant that commuter feeders began to outgrow the Twin-Otter, the Metroliner, and the Shorts 330 ALPA should have put the brakes on any further expansion of the so called "feeders".
Instead they were so arrogant and self rightous that they felt that they were the only true "airline pilots" and that their flying should be protected.
When Comair purchased the very first regional jet (and just what "region" is that, the Western Hemisphere?) ALPA should have experienced an earth-shattering wake-up call... but rather than write scope language right then and there which would have brought ALL airline pilots into the fold, they chose to protect what they have -- keeping the so-called "regional" pilots away from their DC9''s and 737-200s.
The true solution, at the time, would have been to welcome them to the family. When you got hired at ABC Airlines, you would have started as a Saab 340 or Dash 8 or Jetstream 3100 First Officer and you would move through the ranks as your seniority allowed. But ALPA wasnt bright enough to draw that conclusion. They wanted to protect their military "buddies" from having to fly a turboprop. ALPA screwed up and today we all pay for it.
The so-called regionals are now a shadow mainline. They could take over virtually all of the US Airways domestic system tomorrow and do so at half the cost to the company...and the traveling public would barely notice the difference.
So dont chastise the regional pilots for struggling to improve their own lot in life -- ALPA left them to wither on the vine long ago with no support whatsoever from their "brothers".
I''m also furloughed from US Airways by the way. ALPA used to pride itself on saying "Scope is the Guardian, Jobs are the Key". It''s a shame that they didnt listen to their own advice.
This problem goes back a decade before J4J was ever uttered.
ALPA created the regional jet problem. They dropped the ball.
The instant that commuter feeders began to outgrow the Twin-Otter, the Metroliner, and the Shorts 330 ALPA should have put the brakes on any further expansion of the so called "feeders".
Instead they were so arrogant and self rightous that they felt that they were the only true "airline pilots" and that their flying should be protected.
When Comair purchased the very first regional jet (and just what "region" is that, the Western Hemisphere?) ALPA should have experienced an earth-shattering wake-up call... but rather than write scope language right then and there which would have brought ALL airline pilots into the fold, they chose to protect what they have -- keeping the so-called "regional" pilots away from their DC9''s and 737-200s.
The true solution, at the time, would have been to welcome them to the family. When you got hired at ABC Airlines, you would have started as a Saab 340 or Dash 8 or Jetstream 3100 First Officer and you would move through the ranks as your seniority allowed. But ALPA wasnt bright enough to draw that conclusion. They wanted to protect their military "buddies" from having to fly a turboprop. ALPA screwed up and today we all pay for it.
The so-called regionals are now a shadow mainline. They could take over virtually all of the US Airways domestic system tomorrow and do so at half the cost to the company...and the traveling public would barely notice the difference.
So dont chastise the regional pilots for struggling to improve their own lot in life -- ALPA left them to wither on the vine long ago with no support whatsoever from their "brothers".
I''m also furloughed from US Airways by the way. ALPA used to pride itself on saying "Scope is the Guardian, Jobs are the Key". It''s a shame that they didnt listen to their own advice.
D3o2r8kdrvr,
If the Mesa boys are scabs, then just who is on strike, and what struck work is being flown? Do you even know the definition of a scab? BTW, while you took a pay cut, the Mesa pilots got a raise in their last contract, and someone with your seniority level at Mesa is probably outearning you anyway. It is sad what has happened to so many losing jobs, but Mesa is not to blame, ALPA is.
If the Mesa boys are scabs, then just who is on strike, and what struck work is being flown? Do you even know the definition of a scab? BTW, while you took a pay cut, the Mesa pilots got a raise in their last contract, and someone with your seniority level at Mesa is probably outearning you anyway. It is sad what has happened to so many losing jobs, but Mesa is not to blame, ALPA is.
While I will agree that Mesa pilots are not scabs, they deserve a lot of the blame for the poor wages we are all being forced to accept at the regional level.
At what point do we stop lowering the bar?
Mesa agreed to reserve pilots only having 8 days off a month (I know no one cares about reserve pilots cause we''ve all been there and done that)
Pilots with less than 4 years longevity may be required to execute training agreements as a condition for entering into initial, upgrade or transistion training: Cost 10,000 for the jet, $9,500 for the Dash, and 8,000 for the Beech. (The mainline guys were excited to find out about this) But, if you give them 45 days notice of your leave date, they will cut that in half!
Cancellation Pay--So long as the controllable (mechanical, aircraft damage, crew, etc.) completion factor is above 97.5 percent each bid period the Company will pay for all controllable cancellations. (That''s gotta be nice, gee I wonder if I can count on that money I earned this month)
Still getting paid by segment time. But they will review those times every six months to determine if adjustements need to be made, BUT, only when there is a variance in excess of 10 percent.
First year sick time 1.4 hours, second year through 4th year 2.0, Each year thereafter 2.5 hours.
$1.15 per hour per diem.
Here''s the point. Each regional airline is now going/will be going/or has been through pay concession talks. Do you know what contract was thrown in their face every single time? Mesa''s. "Well Mesa can do it for this, why can''t you?"
When do we stop lowering the bar?
At what point do we stop lowering the bar?
Mesa agreed to reserve pilots only having 8 days off a month (I know no one cares about reserve pilots cause we''ve all been there and done that)
Pilots with less than 4 years longevity may be required to execute training agreements as a condition for entering into initial, upgrade or transistion training: Cost 10,000 for the jet, $9,500 for the Dash, and 8,000 for the Beech. (The mainline guys were excited to find out about this) But, if you give them 45 days notice of your leave date, they will cut that in half!
Cancellation Pay--So long as the controllable (mechanical, aircraft damage, crew, etc.) completion factor is above 97.5 percent each bid period the Company will pay for all controllable cancellations. (That''s gotta be nice, gee I wonder if I can count on that money I earned this month)
Still getting paid by segment time. But they will review those times every six months to determine if adjustements need to be made, BUT, only when there is a variance in excess of 10 percent.
First year sick time 1.4 hours, second year through 4th year 2.0, Each year thereafter 2.5 hours.
$1.15 per hour per diem.
Here''s the point. Each regional airline is now going/will be going/or has been through pay concession talks. Do you know what contract was thrown in their face every single time? Mesa''s. "Well Mesa can do it for this, why can''t you?"
When do we stop lowering the bar?
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On 4/10/2003 9:08:35 AM DHC8Driver wrote:
retread wrote:
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On 4/10/2003 9:08:35 AM DHC8Driver wrote:
retread wrote:
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When you kneel you know what you can kiss. The WO were offered the J4J program remember! However, the greed got the best of you because you wanted our RJS without our pilots. You could of had half of them. We had a scope that protected us from this crap.
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Once again you show your complete ingorance of any facts concerning J4J''s.
All 3 WO''s ratified and agreed to J4J''s long ago. PDT agreed to J4J''s about last July or Aug, before Airways went into bankruptcy. There was no greed as you contend, we ratifed what Mainline ALPA/U management demanded.
You say "we could have had half of them", half of them what?
Do you see any jets at the WO? NO, Any orders or even talk of getting any in the future? No... And if we do get all these great jets that are supposedly going to save USAir, we get the privelege of having 50% of our pilots end up on the street. So there is lots of pain and "unfairness" to go around and that is the aviation industry since deregulation.
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PineyBob,
Point noted, this is a market driven thing for the most part. Welcome to capitalism. Has anyone else noticed that industries driven the most by big labor (airlines, steel, manufacturing), are the hardest hit by layoffs and downsizing during recessionary periods? What does this say about unions in general? Had ALPA not been so inflexible in regards to regional jet operations in the first place (not withstanding Wolf''s "They are a fad" stance), maybe US would have had the feed it needed not to get into the position where Chapter 11 was a necessary step. Delta Connection RJ''s flying with little or no restriction throughout the bread and butter of the US rotue structure did more to harm US financially than WN or FL or B6 ever did or will.
Then you have the wholly owned pilots at PDT, ALG, and PSA, so many of which I personally witnessed for years walking around the Express crew rooms (especially PDT guys in CLT) looking down their noses at any of the affiliate carriers. They had lousy schedules (BTW the Mesa contract is days off by bid period, which there are 13 annually, not by month), got paid less per hour by seat, and were just inferior people. Not once did they even pretend to care, nor want to assist them in anyway. Now Mesa gets more flying, and they whine. Welcome to the world of capitalism boys.
Bob, Thanks as always for being such as loyal US customer. I can see the world for what it is, and know if it were not for loyal customers like you, this company would have ceased to exist long ago.
Point noted, this is a market driven thing for the most part. Welcome to capitalism. Has anyone else noticed that industries driven the most by big labor (airlines, steel, manufacturing), are the hardest hit by layoffs and downsizing during recessionary periods? What does this say about unions in general? Had ALPA not been so inflexible in regards to regional jet operations in the first place (not withstanding Wolf''s "They are a fad" stance), maybe US would have had the feed it needed not to get into the position where Chapter 11 was a necessary step. Delta Connection RJ''s flying with little or no restriction throughout the bread and butter of the US rotue structure did more to harm US financially than WN or FL or B6 ever did or will.
Then you have the wholly owned pilots at PDT, ALG, and PSA, so many of which I personally witnessed for years walking around the Express crew rooms (especially PDT guys in CLT) looking down their noses at any of the affiliate carriers. They had lousy schedules (BTW the Mesa contract is days off by bid period, which there are 13 annually, not by month), got paid less per hour by seat, and were just inferior people. Not once did they even pretend to care, nor want to assist them in anyway. Now Mesa gets more flying, and they whine. Welcome to the world of capitalism boys.
Bob, Thanks as always for being such as loyal US customer. I can see the world for what it is, and know if it were not for loyal customers like you, this company would have ceased to exist long ago.
