June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[OTTER574]

BS, complete and total BS. "what you and I brought", as was the case with all concerned, was nothing more than ourselves....period!

I'm still waiting to see the first video of an AWA pilot, heroically struggling against raging wind, rain and storm, "bringing a job" up some treacherous mountainside. Show me that...and we'll talk 😉

Hey if you want to climb a mountain...please do so. You have a strange being/person going on and you may need to seek help with that strange person inside you with a lot of bravado that can't be explained....Safely piloting an aircraft may not suit your needs eastus1.

OTTER

 

[EastUS1]

Hey if you want to climb a mountain...please do so. You have a strange being/person going on and you may need to seek help with that strange person inside you with a lot of bravado that can't be explained....Safely piloting an aircraft may not suit your needs eastus1.

OTTER

As I come close to the end of over four decades of flying; I'll take that sage counsel under consideration....most especially, since it comes from a complete fool that, believing sufficient thrust was readilly available for Sulley and Skiles, that they performed poorly by saving all aboard via the Hudson splash down. You never answered any questions as to how YOU would done it "better"(I'm thinking Smoking Hole) Still waiting on that explanation....I'm sure all would be amused....? 😉

"a lot of bravado that can't be explained" indeed............

 

[cleardirect]

1) "So you guys would not want anything you had not earned right by cutting in the American line." "What is the problem?" None that I can see with that thinking....Your actual mileage may vary though.
2) That would be appropriate, although I'm "sure" that all the APA folks would much, much rather place you ahead of as many of their people as they possibly can 😉

But you see the west is not the ones saying that APA will want to put us ahead of them because we will only be here a couple years, that would be your boys. I have been saying APA does not care if we are east or west they just want us as far down the list as possible.

Just the opposite of what you are trying to sell. But that is typical of most of your posts. 180 degrees from reality.

 

[cleardirect]

Guess again. From a personal perspective?...All this could blow away in the wind tomorrow and life would go on quite nicely 😉 I'll not be around airline stuff long enough to much care, from any purely selfish viewpoint, about the american deal at all. Don't forget to truly dazzle them all with all that "Cactus Stuff" though...and most especially...make certain you let them all know how you "saved" them, that you're truly "special", deserving of absurdly inflated "seniority", and that the miserable ingrates should be thrilled just to have their jobs. 😉

Good Luck

Again 180 degrees from reality. It is was Mike Gilles that used official communication to first say something like that. It is usapa calling it an acquisition not a merger, the west is not saying we saved AA. Now in the case of AAA, without the merger you would have liquidated. Not the case with AA.

It is the American employees that are using the "cactus stuff" they are the ones that brought cactus to work and printed stickers with the cactus and lone star on them.

It has not been the west telling the world how special we are it has been the east. How much you sacrificed, how you magically fly WB across the bad scary Atlantic at night. How you deserve to put furloughed pilot senior to west captains because they just work for Mesa grande some commuter airline while you worked for a real airline. Go ahead and try the BS with American.

 

[EastUS1]

Go ahead and try the BS with American.

Well...the friends I have there certainly don't share your views....much less any great love of all things "Cactus". Of course; they're also antiques who were flying before you were born, but that needn't effect your fantasies as to having the entirety of the American group in the palm of your hand. I'll leave the selling to them of any BS to yourself and the mighty AOL. In fairness though; there's no complete shortage of greed-soaked, self-obsessed, younger punks at their establishment either. Your sorts over on their side may offer your "Holy Cause" even less support than imagined though, as they certainly have no real incentive for placing AWA folks over them for the duration of their careers, but....who can know yet how it will all come to pass, when all is said and done?

 

[cleardirect]

Well...the friends I have there certainly don't share your views....much less any great love of all things "Cactus". Of course; they're also antiques who were flying before you were born, but that needn't effect your fantasies as to having the entirety of the American group in the palm of your hand. I'll leave the selling to them of any BS to yourself and the mighty AOL. In fairness though; there's no complete shortage of greed-soaked, self-obsessed, younger punks at their establishment either. Your sorts over on their side may offer your "Holy Cause" even less support than imagined though, as they certainly have no real incentive for placing AWA folks over them for the duration of their careers, but....who can know yet how it will all come to pass, when all is said and done?

There will be a seniority integration just like there was between AWA and AAA. No they don't want east or west senior to them but it is going to happen. It is going to happen using the Nicolau and the AA list. I unlike you am under no delusion about that.

Now the argument you east guys have made is that the AA pilots would accept east pilots senior to them by DOH because you will not be here long and would not effect them much. If they just wait 5 + years they can have what is left.

Take a look at the numbers. There is a huge 8 year break in hiring at us airways in 1990. So if we just look at that point. Using DOH there are 2863 east pilot hired before 3/1990 and 3436 pilots hired before 3/1990. Meaning that it would be just slightly higher than a 1/1 ratio of east to AA pilots in the top 6500 (that is excluding west pilot, add another several hundred). The premise that all 2800 east pilot would be gone in 5 years is bull.

That 3400 number at AA represents about how many WB pilots they have. So what you want to do is place NB f/o senior to WB pilots. 84.3% of the east list would senior to the AA junior captain hired in 1992.

Sure boys go and make that argument to APA and an arbitrator. I would love to be in the room for that presentation.

The best shot you guys have of getting something livable with APA is to use the Nicolau. Making the argument that you FO deserve to be senior to their captain is not going to get you very far. How did that work out for you last time. Once again using your own argument you just want want you brought. That guy brought an FO seat not a captain seat.

 

[EastUS1]

I have been saying APA does not care if we are east or west they just want us as far down the list as possible.

Yet....you believe the nic list will be used....interesting. Exactly how would that serve the purpose of seeking your placement as far down any combined list as possible?

 

[EastUS1]

That guy brought an FO seat not a captain seat.

I'll never even begin to understand this compulsive fantasy that any line employee, within the context of any corporate transaction, can ever possibly have "brought" anything other than themselves to the dance. I'm curious; do you at least have some photos of a pilot carrying a left or right seat from one aircraft to another?

 

[cleardirect]

Yet....you believe the nic list will be used....interesting. Exactly how would that serve the purpose of seeking your placement as far down any combined list as possible?

Really, you can't figure this out?

Open your eyes just slightly. Listen carefully. The APA does not care if it is an east or west pilot. They want all of us junior to them.

If they only have one list all them have to do is argue that the entire list gets push down against their list. If they have to argue over 3-4 or 5 lists is becomes much harder.

They have a list. We have a list. If they disregard an arbitrated list the TWA guys are going to demand a redo of their list. The last thing the APA wants to do is open up that can of worms.

BTW it is OUR placement as far down the list as possible not just mine or the west that the APA wants.

 

[EastUS1]

Really, you can't figure this out?

Open your eyes just slightly. Listen carefully.

Sigh....Grow Up.

 

[Zone5]

Yes, those who yell loudest about "not ripe" are too blind to see the 9th's premise was that the merits cannot yet be evaluated until... Wait for it.... Until AFTER negotiations (between USAPA and the company) are COMPLETE and RATIFIED... Because of contengcies that will undoubtedly bring about changes...

A merger with another 10,000 pilots and another group of 1,500+ furloughs, more than five years later presents even more contengencies than have already occurred...but yes the only thing that is written in stone is that Nic will flip out if s/he doesn't get credit for saving AA pilots from the unemployment line .

Actually, American has 1,685 furloughed pilots, of which 650 have yet to be offered recall. The rest have deferred recall. Some are back on active duty in the Armed Forces and some have evidently decided to get real jobs somewhere else.

Pilots who have been offered recall are NOT furloughed.


seajay

 

[nic4us]

Sigh....Grow Up.

It would be wise of usapa to take Clear's advice.

He is just relating the reality of the situation that the east refuses to understand, both in the LCC merger and a future LCC/AMR merger.

The Nic does not devastate any east pilots career expectation when all factors are considered. No doubt the Nic shatters the east expectation of leapfrogging from furloughed to captain seat at the West's expense, but that was never going to happen.

Another thing. The top West pilots on the Nic are also the closest to retirement, but none of them were flying when Clear was born, just like no AMR pilots were flying when Clear was born. You understanding of the demographics are grossly overexagerated.

Bottom line, the APA would seek to move the entire LCC list (i.e. the Nic) as far down the AMR list in an integration. The wise thing for usapa to do would be take the Nic, and as the 9th said " bargain for all USAirways pilots, both east and West" for the fairest treatment of all LCC pilots.

If usapa tries to go in with 3 lists, the east is going to get hammered, and the West will be right there getting hammered with you, but will gain in relation to our east counterparts relative to the NIc.

 

[nic4us]

Actually, American has 1,685 furloughed pilots, of which 650 have yet to be offered recall. The rest have deferred recall. Some are back on active duty in the Armed Forces and some have evidently decided to get real jobs somewhere else.

Pilots who have been offered recall are NOT furloughed.


seajay

I agree 100%.

Two points to that statement. You have 900+ non-furloughed, yet not working AMR pilots.

and, there are no "furloughed" pilots at LCC. So, Odell's status is actively bypassing recal and still one number senior to Colello.

 

[cleardirect]

Sigh....Grow Up.

Sigh! Try being smarter!!!!!!!

 

[luvthe9]

I did not think usapa would get ALPA off the property. I reasoned that it would be close but favor ALPA.

I thought there was no way east pilots like yourself would renege after getting a screamingly good deal from Nic.

I guess I just underestimated what complete scumbags and a-holes populate the ranks over there.

I did not think usapa would get ALPA off the property. I reasoned that it would be close but favor ALPA.

I thought there was no way east pilots like yourself would renege after getting a screamingly good deal from Nic.

I guess I just underestimated what complete scumbags and a-holes populate the ranks over there.

Yep, those guys with 18 years and never furloughed going behind new hires was a screaming deal. I wonder how long they thought about it before the launched ALPA off the land. Are you really that naive that you think they would put up with that? Anyone letting that go down? McIlvenna set you guys up for the problems you have today, and it is going to bite you harder than you ever imagined very soon.