US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Flippin43]

1) "Comparing your seniority to someone from another airline is pointless, as is expecting your seniority at your old airline to be exactly the same or better than what you get at the new airline...." Huh? :blink: If that's the true feeling out west...ummm...how is it at all rational for any AWA folks to demand that their seniority/relative postion transfer directly over to "the new airline, which only coincidently happens to have the name USAirways"? isn't it the west postion that your seniority should be "exactly the same or better" at "the new airline" here? What am I missing here?

2) "and feel the attrition in their bases is also their possession." Whatta' crazy concept that last is hey? No matter. Not to worry about making any point there. All out east clearly understand that the west believes that any/all east attrition should be taken away from them for the benefit of the west group......

Clearly you need to read the Nicolau award. every AWA pilots relative position did not transfer to the "new list" every one of us with the exception of Dave Odell took a hit. Suffice it to say we did not recieve a direct transfer of our positions to the new list. It didn't go exactly relative, most took a hit but we all understood the potential for that when we entered Arbitration. Sorry that you did not.

On the other side of the party we have east pilots who were on Furlough status without a job to merge, and they are INDIGNANT that they will not be able to return to block holding Captain slots instantly. (when in the History of Airlines has this EVER happened) So you tell me who it is that wish to improve their postition (drastically) as a result of this merger.

It should also be noted that every active east pilot with the exception of Mr Monda IMPROVED their relative standing on the Nic list as compared to their old list. So tell me again who came out ahead. Seems to me that evidently this improvement wasn't enough for the east.


Flip

 

[RSVP767]

I am fine with implementing, that was the intent. Yet, I have no "free pass".

Your forecast of what the Nic means to east pilots is unjustified, selfish, delusional, and flat out wrong.

Your failure to promote your status on the backs of the West is hardly suffering. You have what you had, and a little more, but you are not content unless you can have mine, and you call that suffering.

In regards to your..."We are ALL SENIOR TO YOU" remark. HARDLY, but I guess you could consider it suffering when an egomaniac discovers that his on self importance is unfounded.

My accurate forecast of what the NIC means to the East pilots is absolutely justified. Why else do you think we're in this predicament? Wake up!

We have no desires to promote anything on the backs of the West. It is my belief the West should not suffer nor pay for our stagnant careers thus far on the East. On the otherhand you should not benefit or unfairly prosper from it either (i.e.; promote your status on the backs of the East). This is where NIC failed!

We have put in the time, we have earned the 'reward'. And I'm not refering to anything the West has. We don't want a damn thing the West has. The problem is we DO NOT have what we 'HAD'. NIC gave much of it to the West. Give us what we HAD, build a fence....to the moon.....at the Mississippi for 20 years, and we're fine with NIC. Now, would that be a problem for you? What's that? Was that a yes? Oh, so you want our widebodies, you want our upgrades, you want our attrition, you want to....how'd you say it.....'promote YOUR status on the backs of' the East? Ok, I get it, I see where your coming from now. Understood! Thank you for clarifying.

Say what?..... I'm wrong??? Prove it! Give us a fence for 20 years and let's move on! Done! What's that?....You don't have to. Ah, yes, I supose you're right. We did do that arbitration thing didn't we. Fair enough! Or was it fair? You think we should just lay down our careers to the benefit of the west without a fight because George said so. And because he said so, you don't have to negotiate one ioda! Well, true enough. There sir, is your 'free pass'! "The arbitraitor said so!"....."It's done!"....."Final and Binding!"....."We'll just have to live with it!".....and on and on! Anything to justify your windfall!


BTW, FYI, the "We are ALL SENIOR TO YOU" remark was NOT MINE.

 

[Freebird]

My accurate forecast of what the NIC means to the East pilots is absolutely justified. Why else do you think we're in this predicament? Wake up!

You are in this predicament, because you demanded DOH. George told you that you WOULD NOT get it...and you Failed to listen. Blame yourselves.





We have no desires to promote anything on the backs of the West.

Ummmm....thats what DOH is. Example; a furloughed East Pilot returning to the line as Captain or even line holding F.O. The Date of the merger, upgrade at AWA was 7 years. What was it at AAA?


It is my belief the West should not suffer nor pay for our stagnant careers thus far on the East.


Delay, delay, delay......both sides are suffering because you have the majority. Put up a contract and it will pass. You know it.



On the otherhand you should not benefit or unfairly prosper from it either (i.e.; promote your status on the backs of the East). This is where NIC failed!


NIC stated the reasons and methods used to combine the list. Have Seham read it to you for $500.00/hour.


We have put in the time, we have earned the 'reward'.

As have we. Remember the 7 year upgrade mentioned above. Your airline was closing the doors, forever. There was to be no more 'Reward'.



And I'm not referring to anything the West has. We don't want a damn thing the West has.

Unfortunately for all of us, we are combined now. Assets are combined, like it or not, its a new airline. BTW...if we merged with UAL, I'd hope PSA guys wont bid LAX and just stay in PHL/CLT.



The problem is we DO NOT have what we 'HAD'.


What did you have? Attrition? The 90's are over. Your company was so mismanaged, along with your MEC that they sold you out. Not the west.


NIC gave much of it to the West. Give us what we HAD, build a fence....to the moon.....at the Mississippi for 20 years, and we're fine with NIC.

You'll have to be fine with the NIC regardless. If not, quit.


Now, would that be a problem for you? What's that? Was that a yes? Oh, so you want our widebodies, you want our upgrades,


It would be a problem. You try to steal from us, then ask for forgiveness....then you try to steal from us again, and ask for forgiveness....your attempts are insincere. You had a fence on he widebodies, we were fine with it. We dont want YOUR upgrades, Upgrade at AAA was what 20 years?????





you want our attrition, you want to....how'd you say it.....'promote YOUR status on the backs of' the East? Ok, I get it, I see where your coming from now. Understood! Thank you for clarifying.


I lost numbers in the 'relative senoirity' list, how did I promote myself on your back? They guy above and below me (AAA) were in the same percentile on the NIC list as they were on the AAA list. The same. What did NIC miss?



Say what?..... I'm wrong??? Prove it! Give us a fence for 20 years and let's move on!

We'll move on regardless of any fence. Put up a contract, and it will pass.


Done! What's that?....You don't have to. Ah, yes, I supose you're right. We did do that arbitration thing didn't we. Fair enough!

Final and Binding. Your group demanded Binding Arbitration and DOH.



Or was it fair? You think we should just lay down our careers to the benefit of the west without a fight because George said so. And because he said so, you don't have to negotiate one ioda!

Your side doesnt understand Good Faith bargaining. You see its always been about you and your career expectations. When you lose, you blame everyone else for your failure.

I'd like to see you guys win your LOA 84, Get snapback wages (which are higher than what you're asking for in a new contract...classic) and have Doug tell you...."Sorry, we know we lost the arbitration, but we dont agree with the outcome and will not honor it...." Sound familiar? You're going down a losing road.



Well, true enough. There sir, is your 'free pass'! "The arbitraitor said so!"....."It's done!"....."Final and Binding!"....."We'll just have to live with it!".....and on and on! Anything to justify your windfall!


No windfall. Relative Position.



BTW, FYI, the "We are ALL SENIOR TO YOU" remark was NOT MINE.

 

[luvn737s]

1) "Comparing your seniority to someone from another airline is pointless, as is expecting your seniority at your old airline to be exactly the same or better than what you get at the new airline...." Huh? :blink: If that's the true feeling out west...ummm...how is it at all rational for any AWA folks to demand that their seniority/relative postion transfer directly over to "the new airline, which only coincidently happens to have the name USAirways"? isn't it the west postion that your seniority should be "exactly the same or better" at "the new airline" here? What am I missing here?

No problem, I'll go over it again for you. Just because you ( the generic east pilot) were 2000 from being number 1 (unlikely that the majority would see single digit seniority) does not mean you are entitled to remain 2000 away from numero uno at a new airline that is comprised of pilots from two non-existant airlines. Relative position on the new list should be roughly comparable.

2) "and feel the attrition in their bases is also their possession." Whatta' crazy concept that last is hey? No matter. Not to worry about making any point there. All out east clearly understand that the west believes that any/all east attrition should be taken away from them for the benefit of the west group......

How does one possess attrition? Openings will occur going forward due to a variety of things on both sides. After the PID and SLI, those variables should provide advancement opportunities systemwide.

 

[westcoastflyer]

Any word from USAPA or the company yet on the Early Retirement Program? It should be available to both West and East pilots, since it would mitigate furloughs from both groups.

 

[RSVP767]

No problem, I'll go over it again for you. Just because you ( the generic east pilot) were 2000 from being number 1 (unlikely that the majority would see single digit seniority) does not mean you are entitled to remain 2000 away from numero uno at a new airline that is comprised of pilots from two non-existant airlines. Relative position on the new list should be roughly comparable.

Agreed!......But only if both airlines had roughly similar histories (a`la DL/NW).

The same result would occur under DOH IF both airlines had roughly COMPARABLE,or RELATIVELY similar histories. We do not! Not even close. That's why either position (DOH, or Relative Position) does not work for us. Nicolau should have struck a balance somewhere in between. I believe that is what all of us (East & West) rationally expected. Instead he came down on your side. Windfall West! If he had come down on our side it would have been Windfall East, and the West would be just as upset.

 

[luvn737s]

Agreed!......But only if both airlines had roughly similar histories (a`la DL/NW).

The same result would occur under DOH IF both airlines had roughly COMPARABLE,or RELATIVELY similar histories. We do not! Not even close. That's why either position (DOH, or Relative Position) does not work for us.

No, that's why relative seniority is the ONLY fair integration, precisely because the demographics are so different. Nicolau understood this and placed the top 517 of the east in DOH order (ostensibly to preserve the wide body positions). It was a hybrid of relative and DOH, but those who would have benefitted from straight DOH were not in the top 517, so they got enough folks to get mad enough to vote out ALPA and erect a barrier to the arbitrated award.

The east pilots need to replace their BPR reps and Cleary (immediately) and put in place pilots who can make wise compromises and keep things moving forward. The hard-line makes folks feel powerful (in the short-run, before they move on to feeling foolish, then betrayed, then bitter, then apathetic), but accomplishes little. Working relationships are cultivated in an environment of trust and in the abscence of pride and arrogance.

If the east pilots really want anything more than what they have, they need to commit to burying the hatchet and begin the hard work of restoring trust with those they have to work with.

 

[N924PS]

Regrettably and presently, an apparent majority of the East pilots has (to coin word from another poster) a pathological fixation on DOH. And they appear happy, if not gleeful, to stay mired on LOA93, stalling as long as possible before the inevitable occurs.

I'm sure many of your regular East posters would help you bury the hatchet, but probably not in the spirit you intended.

For now, we will all remain victims of the Nicolau Award.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Any word from USAPA or the company yet on the Early Retirement Program? It should be available to both West and East pilots, since it would mitigate furloughs from both groups.

Ya know what? The east thinks the west stiffed them on pay parity. And frankly I don't disagree with them. Anyway, do you think they are gonna give the west anything? There are so many knives in each others back that soon everyone is gonna find themselves on life support. EVERYONE better start acknowledging that sooner rather than later you have to work together or it's flatline...

Nomex suit on. Flame away!

 

[nic4us]

We don't want a damn thing the West has. The problem is we DO NOT have what we 'HAD'.......................... Give us what we HAD, build a fence........ for 20 years, and we're fine with NIC. Now, would that be a problem for you? What's that? Was that a yes?

BTW, FYI, the "We are ALL SENIOR TO YOU" remark was NOT MINE.

Careful what you wish for there.

I would gladly give you what you HAD, including furlough every east pilot right back to Colello, to get the West their jobs back. You are aware there will be around 150 pilots senior to Colello on furlough right.

If it were up to me, I would give you a 20 year fence, including your 9 330s, and other widebodies. I would then include in that side of the fence, a downsizing ratio to mirror the reductions the east had over the last 20 years. Further, I would strip the remaining 190s, the additional 757s and 330s and put them on the other side of that fence of yours.

Finally, why do you need 20 years, the east constantly claims they will all be gone in under 10.

I apologize for misquoting you about the remark.

 

[EastUS]

Relative position on the new list should be roughly comparable.

How does one possess attrition?

1) Which would be achieved, by the west's "integrity" ridden standards/nic, by placing "Save Dave", with his three whole whopping months of AWA service as "senior" to east pilots with 16+ years of continous service....I see.

2) Easy. In the real world = Maintain seperate ops, or, in the case of the west's seeking something "Fair and Equitable"/Fantasyland; Get an arbitrator to say you can just take the east attrition for your own selfish gains, and campaign vigorously, if fuitilely, in endless attempts to convince the east people to ever vote said nonsense into existence.

Have fun with the neverending propoganda. I think we're done here.

 

[inverted]

Careful what you wish for there.

I would gladly give you what you HAD, including furlough every east pilot right back to Colello, to get the West their jobs back. You are aware there will be around 150 pilots senior to Colello on furlough right.

If it were up to me, I would give you a 20 year fence, including your 9 330s, and other widebodies. I would then include in that side of the fence, a downsizing ratio to mirror the reductions the east had over the last 20 years. Further, I would strip the remaining 190s, the additional 757s and 330s and put them on the other side of that fence of yours.

Finally, why do you need 20 years, the east constantly claims they will all be gone in under 10.

I apologize for misquoting you about the remark.

Too much damage done........hope it all goes away...neither the west nor the east deserves a career. Both are weak pilot groups.....spare the industry another lower rung of the collective ladder.

inverted

 

[CallawayGolf]

Agreed!......But only if both airlines had roughly similar histories (a`la DL/NW).

The same result would occur under DOH IF both airlines had roughly COMPARABLE,or RELATIVELY similar histories. We do not! Not even close. That's why either position (DOH, or Relative Position) does not work for us. Nicolau should have struck a balance somewhere in between. I believe that is what all of us (East & West) rationally expected. Instead he came down on your side. Windfall West! If he had come down on our side it would have been Windfall East, and the West would be just as upset.

I just took a fresh, word-for-word reading of the Nicolau Opinion and Award. I don’t see anywhere in the document where the East Merger Committee offered up this balanced approach between DOH and Relative Position to which you speak. If this is what both sides rationally expected, then why wasn’t this moderated scheme presented to the board?

Rather, George Nicolau was blunt in his statements regarding both committees’ fundamentally unchanged positions throughout the process. Objectively, the board did not line up the award with either committee’s recommendations as nether side got what they asked for. Rather, the board took a moderated approach to the middle of the list and made special provisions for those at the top and the bottom which were not scenarios presented by either East or West.

So while you clearly do not agree with Nicolau’s ruling, it’s fair to say he agreed with you and struck a balance between the two extreme positions he was presented with. If emotional baggage can be set aside, a full reading of the Award reveals that George is not senile, delusional, out of his mind, or biased against one of the parties. He knew full well what he was doing and knew that he would gain no new admirers in the process precisely because he had to make a difficult ruling that met the terms and conditions of the APLA merger policy without a moderated position on either side with which to build upon.

We might be making progress though. It sounds like some on the east have moved all the way into the third or even fourth stage of the grieving process:
1) Denial
2) Anger
3) Bargaining
4) Depression
5) Acceptance

 

[westcoastflyer]

Ya know what? The east thinks the west stiffed them on pay parity. And frankly I don't disagree with them. Anyway, do you think they are gonna give the west anything? There are so many knives in each others back that soon everyone is gonna find themselves on life support. EVERYONE better start acknowledging that sooner rather than later you have to work together or it's flatline...

Nomex suit on. Flame away!

All I was asking was a simple question, but everybody seems to be forever stuck in the west vs. east mentality. The BPR of USAPA was to be briefed by the NAC today by a telephonic meeting starting at 11:00 EST. This is an important issue for a lot of pilots and their families. Surely, there must be some word out on this by now. Anybody know?

 

[N924PS]

All I was asking was a simple question, but everybody seems to be forever stuck in the west vs. east mentality. The BPR of USAPA was to be briefed by the NAC today by a telephonic meeting starting at 11:00 EST. This is an important issue for a lot of pilots and their families. Surely, there must be some word out on this by now. Anybody know?

Nothing yet......and don't call me Shirley.