June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

The Great Pumpkin is coming! LOL

None could beat that for substance 😉

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hard at work on that list, East???

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

The USAPA goon squad told their boys to start a new meme. Whenever that happens, there is a massive fail about to happen. And we know how much fun those are!

The Great Pumpkin is coming! LOL

I think you hit the nail on the head.

What could it be? There really is not much left to grasp at.

Could it be that Kasher finally killed the LOA 93 and any hope of 3%?
The APA told usapa DOH is DOA?
Change of control has no value?
The NAC has no input and is just along for the ride?

Whatever it is, disappointment and pointing fingers is sure to follow.

 

[EastUS1]

List the airplanes I've strappen into...

Those "military cockpits"? = Done.

http://media.photobu...ale/016.jpg?o=1


BoeingBoy: "I come from a generation that experienced Vietnam winding down where one couldn't automatically expect to move from a military cockpit to a civilian cockpit." "As if you ever strapped into a military cockpit"... BoeingBoy: "LOL You have no idea what cockpits I've strappen into.

 

[Ames]

I just watched the PHX crew news for May. With regards to the two way vs. three way seniority integration issue it is quite clear that the Nicolau list is here to stay. Parker does his very best to be "neutral" and claim ignorance to what his lawyers are saying in court but the facts are the facts. Our own (former ucrapa rep David Braid) did an absolutely fantastic job of grilling Parker on this issue while clearly stating the transcripts of the DJ hearings.

It won't be long before Parker finally stops pandering to the east and gets down to business. Ucrapa is totally and absolutely insignificant in the coming merger and that is priceless.

 

[IADair]

"Ucrapa is totally and absolutely insignificant in the coming merger"

Yeah it is kind of painful to watch in a way , kind of sad, usapa has burned every possible bridge, Parker's strategy is to totally avoid the pilots union. Oh he may say this and that, kind of like giving opium to the people.

Parker planned this merger in a way in which usapa could not get in the way again, like it appears that usapa did with the united merger.
Now that is not to say that this merger is a done deal, but Parker ducks in a row does not include usapa because usapa is not relevant. Usapa just a side freak show.

Kind of sad even a west website was upset about certain people being named to a merger committee or something, sad, because usapa is just along for the ride similar to Charlie Sheens character in wall street, no power, no influence with blue star airlines, usapa is not even being strung along instead they are just along for the ride.

 

[Phoenix]

Explain this: "As if you ever strapped into a military cockpit"... BoeingBoy: "LOL You have no idea what cockpits I've strappen into."

Military pilots don't strap into planes. They strap planes on.

 

[im back..!!]

I just watched the PHX crew news for May. With regards to the two way vs. three way seniority integration issue it is quite clear that the Nicolau list is here to stay. Parker does his very best to be "neutral" and claim ignorance to what his lawyers are saying in court but the facts are the facts. Our own (former ucrapa rep David Braid) did an absolutely fantastic job of grilling Parker on this issue while clearly stating the transcripts of the DJ hearings.

It won't be long before Parker finally stops pandering to the east and gets down to business. Ucrapa is totally and absolutely insignificant in the coming merger and that is priceless.

"Ucrapa is totally and absolutely insignificant in the coming merger"

Yeah it is kind of painful to watch in a way , kind of sad, usapa has burned every possible bridge, Parker's strategy is to totally avoid the pilots union. Oh he may say this and that, kind of like giving opium to the people.

Parker planned this merger in a way in which usapa could not get in the way again, like it appears that usapa did with the united merger.
Now that is not to say that this merger is a done deal, but Parker ducks in a row does not include usapa because usapa is not relevant. Usapa just a side freak show.

Kind of sad even a west website was upset about certain people being named to a merger committee or something, sad, because usapa is just along for the ride similar to Charlie Sheens character in wall street, no power, no influence with blue star airlines, usapa is not even being strung along instead they are just along for the ride.

=======================================================
Sorry , but I felt completely the opposite regarding the crew news on the 16th...

Did I miss sonething or did Mr Parker and Hemingway not say that the nic was never emplemented..?

He didnt even feel the need to explain anymore, said for the west to "ask your union"....I came away from this news as the nic is gone, unless the merger dosent happen, then its still here if the original TA between east n west produces a Contract.

How many times did they need to say the difference between Macaskill-Bond and the nic, is federal law....Mr Parker said it would take an act of congress to change a Macaskill-Bond arbitration....He left it to you (or ask your union) about a "Non Federal" arbitration....

If you dont see what they were tryin to tell you at the 16th news, then there really has been a waste of bandwidth here for years....Sheesh......

 

[Black Swan]

Ask him if he knows what "Binding Arbitration" means...but be forewarned, you will get 50 posts of personal insults and no actual substance..... Typical

Good morning HP. I think the big issue is the fact the arbitration ISN'T binding. Not at all. You need to look at the issue of arbitration between a labor group and the company, and arbitration WITHIN a labor organization. In the first case, the sides have agreed to binding arbitration in their Collective Agreement. Look at the agreement the company had with ALPA and the one with USAPA. The LOA 93 decision is the perfect example of a binding agreement, and binding it is. You should really be looking at that, and wondering why that went down as fast and hard as it did, and the Nicolau did not. . A labor organization is free to change and negotiate seniority at will. And the fact the pilot group on this property changed bargaining agents, this frees it from the agreements on seniority the former negotiated. The very fact the Nicolau List has not been implemented as did the Kagel Award and others prior should tell you something. Neither the company nor a court can impose on a union the way it has to negotiate or implement seniority. There is nothing binding on USAPA nor the company. Even if Judge Silver says the Nicolau has to be used will mean nothing, as the 9th will again be a factor. If you want to keep pursuing the Nicolau and say it is binding, I think you are really barking up the wrong tree. Look at all the other arbitrations between the company and the union, and how the decisions are binding. That is your clue as to what is and what is not the case here. The INTERNAL DISPUTE is a whole animal unto itself. I agree 100% on the harm issue, as it is relevant and must be considered.

 

[CallawayGolf]

=======================================================
Sorry , but I felt completely the opposite regarding the crew news on the 16th...

Did I miss sonething or did Mr Parker and Hemingway not say that the nic was never emplemented..?

He didnt even feel the need to explain anymore, said for the west to "ask your union"....I came away from this news as the nic is gone, unless the merger dosent happen, then its still here if the original TA between east n west produces a Contract.

How many times did they need to say the difference between Macaskill-Bond and the nic, is federal law....Mr Parker said it would take an act of congress to change a Macaskill-Bond arbitration....He left it to you (or ask your union) about a "Non Federal" arbitration....

If you dont see what they were tryin to tell you at the 16th news, then there really has been a waste of bandwidth here for years....Sheesh......

Of course the NIC hasn't been implemented. Is there really someone who doesn't understand the difference between accepted and implemented? Management is just stating the obvious facts here.

Management often says to the pilots that they need to ask their union certain questions which are their legal responsibility to oversee. USAPA is the duly elected bargaining agent for the pilots and if the pilots want information about issues that are under the direct control of the union they need to address USAPA not management. The seniority integration issue is a union matter not a management one. Management fulfilled their legal duty back in December of 2007 and has accepted the arbitrated list. If USAPA wants to change the list they would have to seek and amendment to the TA which Management will not engage in unless judge Silver exempts them from any DFR collusion liability if they do so. Short of that, the NIC is the only list Management has accepted or will accept until there is a ratified CBA to replace the TA. Management can impede USAPA's quest to violate federal law, but they cannot force USAPA to obey the law. All they can do, and all the west pilots can do, is take USAPA to federal court if they believe a violation has or would occur.

The Macaskill-Bond reference is a forward-looking reference that means that a group of pilots cannot repeat what Bradford did in forming USAPA in an attempt to try and exploit a perceived loophole in the RLA to avoid or delay the SLI implementation. If a group tried what USAPA has done subsequent to a M/B arbitration they would be under an injunction in very short order. That reference says nothing about what the parties in a APA/USAPA merger would be required to do in terms of a SLI process. USAPA still has a DFR requirement even in presenting a certified list to the process. If they fail to submit a list consistent with their DFR, they could be right back in federal court again. But of course Management isn't going to open themselves up to a charge or interfering with an internal union manner or the possibility that they have colluded with USAPA in any way. USAPA alone must fulfill its duty to the pilots and they alone will face the penalties and consequences if they fail in that duty. Thus Management responds in the correct and responsible manner by saying, "go ask your union."

 

[Black Swan]

Will someone who takes the side the Nicolau Award is final and binding please answer this: If it is binding, why has it not been implemented and other arbitrations that involved the company and USAPA were arbitrated and then awarded with the binding caveat? Ex: LOA 93. Why was that binding? Why is the Nicolau still being contested, and why was it not locked in immediately on the day the decision came out?

 

[Black Swan]

Of course the NIC hasn't been implemented. Is there really someone who doesn't understand the difference between accepted and implemented? Management is just stating the obvious facts here.

Management often says to the pilots that they need to ask their union certain questions which are their legal responsibility to oversee. USAPA is the duly elected bargaining agent for the pilots and if the pilots want information about issues that are under the direct control of the union they need to address USAPA not management. The seniority integration issue is a union matter not a management one. Management fulfilled their legal duty back in December of 2007 and has accepted the arbitrated list. If USAPA wants to change the list they would have to seek and amendment to the TA which Management will not engage in unless judge Silver exempts them from any DFR collusion liability if they do so. Short of that, the NIC is the only list Management has accepted or will accept until there is a ratified CBA to replace the TA. Management can impede USAPA's quest to violate federal law, but they cannot force USAPA to obey the law. All they can do, and all the west pilots can do, is take USAPA to federal court if they believe a violation has or would occur.

The Macaskill-Bond reference is a forward-looking reference that means that a group of pilots cannot repeat what Bradford did in forming USAPA in an attempt to try and exploit a perceived loophole in the RLA to avoid or delay the SLI implementation. If a group tried what USAPA has done subsequent to a M/B arbitration they would be under an injunction in very short order. That reference says nothing about what the parties in a APA/USAPA merger would be required to do in terms of a SLI process. USAPA still has a DFR requirement even in presenting a certified list to the process. If they fail to submit a list consistent with their DFR, they could be right back in federal court again. But of course Management isn't going to open themselves up to a charge or interfering with an internal union manner or the possibility that they have colluded with USAPA in any way. USAPA alone must fulfill its duty to the pilots and they alone will face the penalties and consequences if they fail in that duty. Thus Management responds in the correct and responsible manner by saying, "go ask your union."

Callaway, there is no ACCEPTING here. The LOA 93 decision came out, and immediately the decision was hallmarked, and accepted by both sides as binding. Why would the company and USAPA immediately accept as final and binding EVERY OTHER DECISION that was arbitrated, yet does not come out and implement the Nicolau that day seven years ago? The answer is the decision was between the union and it's own members, as opposed to a decision between an employer and it's employees as BOUND BY THE CBA. It is that simple. You are WAY off on this one.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Will someone who takes the side the Nicolau Award is final and binding please answer this: If it is binding, why has it not been implemented and other arbitrations that involved the company and USAPA were arbitrated and then awarded with the binding caveat? Ex: LOA 93. Why was that binding? Why is the Nicolau still being contested, and why was it not locked in immediately on the day the decision came out?

Because USAPA has been parked by the NMB and there is no JCBA which is what triggers that implementation of the arbitrated seniority list. Given the choice between running separate ops with the east pilots on bankruptcy wages and having the NMB release the parties to self help, I'm sure Management prefers to have USAPA parked and enjoined rather than entering a period of self-help.

Let's ask the reverse. If the award is not binding on USAPA, why haven't they closed out S22 and put a TA out for a vote after four years? If the award isn't binding then why didn't Silver grant USAPA's request for their motion to dismiss?

 

[cleardirect]

Will someone who takes the side the Nicolau Award is final and binding please answer this: If it is binding, why has it not been implemented and other arbitrations that involved the company and USAPA were arbitrated and then awarded with the binding caveat? Ex: LOA 93. Why was that binding? Why is the Nicolau still being contested, and why was it not locked in immediately on the day the decision came out?

The answer to your question is in the T/A. The Nicolau has been accepted. It has not been implemented because we do not have a joint contract yet.

With LOA 93 there is not requirement for a second step.

The collection of the MDA overpayment. usapa lost and that arbitration is final. Has the company collected yet? Not yet because they have to determine how much each person owes but it does not change the fact that the arbitration has been completed.


What if Nicolau had put up a hard 7 year fence? The list is nicolau but no one could bid between an east and west base. Would that make the list any less valid just because we have not used it yet?

The problem usapa is going to have is how do you explain to the next arbitrator what happened to the nicolau list if they don't use it? It does not just go away. Because as the ninth said once a contract is ratified that does not include the Nicolau the case becomes unquestionably ripe. Another merger does not change the facts of the merger between AWA/AAA.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Callaway, there is no ACCEPTING here. The LOA 93 decision came out, and immediately the decision was hallmarked, and accepted by both sides as binding. Why would the company and USAPA immediately accept as final and binding EVERY OTHER DECISION that was arbitrated, yet does not come out and implement the Nicolau that day seven years ago? The answer is the decision was between the union and it's own members, as opposed to a decision between an employer and it's employees as BOUND BY THE CBA. It is that simple. You are WAY off on this one.

But am I as far off as when you claimed that LOA 93 was a winner for the east, or when you claimed that the company was "days away" from selling of the west operation, or when you claimed that Management wouldn't prevail in the status quo violation some east pilots had clearly engaged in? With such a track record of being wrong, one has to wonder why you feel you suddenly got this one right.