Kasher Vrs. Contract?

[Vortilon]

Hey MCI Xplant

It is apparent that you are determined to pursue your lawsuit to gain some undeserved AA occupational seniority. IMHO, you are pissing up a rope. Considering all the BS going on right now in the industry, let alone the company it is pretty pathetic of you. What part of Bobs explaination don't you understand. Obviously, nobody is going to convince you that you are wrong; however, you feel a need to come on here and justify it? What kind of response did you think you were going to get?

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< Princess----- We've been here before! To understand the reason we gave up our scope clauses, you have to understand what was going on at the time! TWA was in BK! We were still under our currant TWA contracts, for what they were worth! We still had, although not up to industry standard, fairly desant wage!

Perhaps a decent wage in MCI. Maybe you should go scab for NWA, after all arent they pretty much offering what you claim to be is a "decent" wage? Is that why you Local had no problem hosting the scab recruiting firm for NWA at a job fair?

We still had Medical insurance! We still had, but soon to loose to the PBCG, our retirement! We still had our work rules! Holidays! Vacation!

Then within a year you voted to give up all those things with the TWU. What would it take for you guys to say NO?

Initially we did refuse to give up our scope!! But Carty told the Unions that he would have our intire contracts be thrown out by the court under 1013!!! That's for all our Unions! But if we voliteraly gave them up, he would see to it that we were treated "Fairly!"

So you brokered a deal with the devil and got screwed. What made you think that Carty would have the right to give you what was ours?

So now came the decision, that you and your AAers think was so easy to give up! Give up scope? Or risk having our whole conract thrown out!!!Think about it! To go forward, in those circumstance, with no protections at all! What would you have done in our place????

Let me ask you something; "Why do you think they wanted you to give up your successorship clause?" Seems to me that it was obvious that they never planned on Dovetailing you and the only way Carty could get the unions at AA to buy off on the plan was to get rid of your successorship clause. What would I have done, voted "No". All or nothing.

As for aa buying TWA, at the time it was touted by the media as a "Master stroke"!

Not by us.

And if things (9/11) would happened differantly, maybe it would have been! I know Carty had a differant outlook on all this than Arpy! But that's another topic! We at TWA, the employees, weren't too happy with it either, but had no say in it!! In fact, we got screwed there also! the single largest Stock Holders were the employees!! when aa/ Compton, put us in Bk to get reed of Uncle Carl, our Stock went to $00.00!!! I don't know who you've been listening to, maybe aafsc, but I don't know anyone who wanted to "steal" your jobs!!! As for our Lawsuits, at least one Judge believes the case has merit! So we'll just have to wait and see if the "Jury" does also!!!!!

You want to be able to exercise your TWA seniority in order to keep working for AA, since TWA is gone, while displacing workers from AA on to the street, some of whom saw the writing on the wall and quit TWA years ago.

You had no say, neither did we. You are here, we can make the best of it or continue to bicker over it. I'd rather move on and try to get back what we lost as far as pay, benifits and jobs. The fact is that AA taking over resulted in a big increase in pay for you guys, so big that even with the concessions figured in you are getting more now than you were while under TWA. The company squeezed and you guys caved, now, after the fact you want to rewrite what you agreed to. The alternative was most certainly that you would be working a completlynew job with only 4 years credit making a lot less money than you are now. The fact that you got a triple isnt enough, you want the umps to rule it a homerun.

 

[MCI transplant]

:angry: Bob------ This is a new low, even for you!!! In so many words you call me a Scab!!! Son I was walking picket lines when you were still peeing in your pants!!!! I try and tell you what went on! I wasn't the one that started this BS!!! I voted NO on your last concesionary contract, I would have voted No on the buy out, if I had the chance!!! I didn't!!! I didn't write the Kasher rulings, or Artical 10e of our current contract!! But there it is!! It's all you got to do is read the damn thing! It's not that hard to understand!!! Just one sentence long!!! Even a New Yorker should be able to understand it!!!! So my question still stands!! Which takes presadance?????the Kasher rulings, or our conract, which was ratified after!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

Hey MCI Xplant

It is apparent that you are determined to pursue your lawsuit to gain some undeserved AA occupational seniority. IMHO, you are pissing up a rope. Considering all the BS going on right now in the industry, let alone the company it is pretty pathetic of you. What part of Bobs explaination don't you understand. Obviously, nobody is going to convince you that you are wrong; however, you feel a need to come on here and justify it? What kind of response did you think you were going to get?

<_< Vortilon----- First of all it's not my lawsuit that we're talking about! Second as I've said before "there's at least one Judge that thinks this case has "merit"!!! So are we pissing up a rope? You could be right!! But your 100% correct about the responce thing!!! I'm outa here!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

:angry: Bob------ This is a new low, even for you!!! In so many words you call me a Scab!!! Son I was walking picket lines when you were still peeing in your pants!!!! I try and tell you what went on! I wasn't the one that started this BS!!! I voted NO on your last concesionary contract, I would have voted No on the buy out, if I had the chance!!! I didn't!!! I didn't write the Kasher rulings, or Artical 10e of our current contract!! But there it is!! It's all you got to do is read the damn thing! It's not that hard to understand!!! Just one sentence long!!! Even a New Yorker should be able to understand it!!!! So my question still stands!! Which takes presadance?????the Kasher rulings, or our conract, which was ratified after!!!

On the one hand you say "we" then you get offended when I respond to "we" and then you fall back on "I". Glad to hear you voted "No", but quit trying to make excuses for those who voted Yes and dont use "we", despite the fact that I'm from New York I dont use "youse" or "doze", at least not in print. "You" can be singular or plural. So when you write "To understand the reason we gave up our scope clauses, you have to understand what was going on at the time! TWA was in BK! We were still under our currant TWA contracts, for what they were worth! We still had, although not up to industry standard, fairly desant wage!" I will use "you", although not neccisarily meaning you MCI Transplant in particular but the "we" you referred to.


The fact that you once walked a picket line does not excuse you from supporting or justifying the scab like actions of places like MCI and Tulsa that have consistantly lowered the living standards of workers because they were afraid to say NO to the company for the last twenty years because as you said they still enjoyed a "fairly desant wage" for where they live. As far as I'm concerned those who voted Yes on all those concessions are no better than scabs. Their "I got mine" and "screw the guys in the line (high cost area)stations" attitude is anti-union. Its no different than the line the company uses when they tell workers These are the terms we are offereing, dont like it leave".

Kasher is part of the contract. Did the language on RIFS or seniority change after Kasher? The Kasher ruling stands until you put in language that specifically changes it.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< You know Bob, I was determined to walk away from this board without further responce, but I guess I'm just weak!! Since WE"RE playing word games here! Singular, and plural, Read what I said about Picket lines! Yes! That was a plural!!!!WE do have a big problem here at MCI. The Presedant of our local has been lead arround by the nose, not only the company, But the International as well! But, we have an election coming up, in fact I have a ballet setting on my desk right now! And believe it or not, WE do have two nAAtives running for Presedant, and first VP! Which I'll be supporting!!! Yes I said "supporting"!!! At least these people know how the game is played!!They at least live here in KC, and what to stay!! So you say Kasher stands! I agree! But! so do'es our contract!! Now I didn't write either, but the way I see it, ( as written), WE should be able to bump system, with the seniority Kasher has given us!!!Which means, yes ,a 25% JFK could in fact use it to, in theory, bump TUL!!!And yes, there are people there that are "unprotected! Kasher even said in one of his rulings that a exTWAer can use their "EXIT SENIOITY" when displaced!!! Not that anyone would want to!!!In referance, Art.10e does not say" except exTWAers!" Screwed up? You betya! But there it is!!!

 

[Skymess]

It's not that hard to understand!!! Just one sentence long!!! Even a New Yorker should be able to understand it!!!!

What is THAT supposed to mean?!

 

[aafsc]

<_< You know Bob, I was determined to walk away from this board without further responce, but I guess I'm just weak!! Since WE"RE playing word games here! Singular, and plural, Read what I said about Picket lines! Yes! That was a plural!!!!WE do have a big problem here at MCI. The Presedant of our local has been lead arround by the nose, not only the company, But the International as well! But, we have an election coming up, in fact I have a ballet setting on my desk right now! And believe it or not, WE do have two nAAtives running for Presedant, and first VP! Which I'll be supporting!!! Yes I said "supporting"!!! At least these people know how the game is played!!They at least live here in KC, and what to stay!! So you say Kasher stands! I agree! But! so do'es our contract!! Now I didn't write either, but the way I see it, ( as written), WE should be able to bump system, with the seniority Kasher has given us!!!Which means, yes ,a 25% JFK could in fact use it to, in theory, bump TUL!!!And yes, there are people there that are "unprotected! Kasher even said in one of his rulings that a exTWAer can use their "EXIT SENIOITY" when displaced!!! Not that anyone would want to!!!In referance, Art.10e does not say" except exTWAers!" Screwed up? You betya! But there it is!!!

You keep saying that TWAers should be able to bump using their seniority. But when all those ex-TWA rampers and mechanics who got laid off and had 30+ years in the line stations, who after the Kasher ruling, saw their seniority go to 4/10/01, went to STL and MCI in droves and then all of a sudden got their 30+ years back. Since you feel that ex-TWAers from STL and MCI should bump using their exit seniority, then all those TWAers that bumped into MCI and STL from the line cities,(and who were the most senior at TWA) should have a seniority date of 4/10/01 in STL and MCI. If an ex-TWAer from, say, MIA with 4/10/01 goes to STL and gets his 30+ years back and then returns to MIA, should he have his 100% TWA seniority or 4/10/01? The fact that is that the TWAers have no problem applying the Kasher arbitration when going TO STL and MCI but have an enormous problem with it going FROM STL and MCI. This is hypocracy on a massive scale and just a bogus way of trying to get back what you voluntarily gave away as a condition of employment with AA.

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< You know Bob, I was determined to walk away from this board without further responce, but I guess I'm just weak!! Since WE"RE playing word games here! Singular, and plural, Read what I said about Picket lines! Yes! That was a plural!!!!

No word games. Just trying to make sure that you understand what I'm saying.

WE do have a big problem here at MCI. The Presedant of our local has been lead arround by the nose, not only the company, But the International as well! But, we have an election coming up, in fact I have a ballet setting on my desk right now! And believe it or not, WE do have two nAAtives running for Presedant, and first VP! Which I'll be supporting!!! Yes I said "supporting"!!! At least these people know how the game is played!!They at least live here in KC, and what to stay!!

Well I would hope that you would vote for the best man for the job, clearly the one you have now does not meet that standard. He was the one who was in a panic when we showed up. Too bad, maybe if we had the chance to meet you guys enough of you would have voted NO.

So you say Kasher stands! I agree! But! so do'es our contract!! Now I didn't write either, but the way I see it, ( as written), WE should be able to bump system, with the seniority Kasher has given us!!!Which means, yes ,a 25% JFK could in fact use it to, in theory, bump TUL!!!

A 25% guy in JFK would only have 4/10/01 in Tulsa. If there was anyone with that seniority he should be able to bump.

And yes, there are people there that are "unprotected! Kasher even said in one of his rulings that a exTWAer can use their "EXIT SENIOITY" when displaced!!! Not that anyone would want to!!!In referance, Art.10e does not say" except exTWAers!" Screwed up? You betya! But there it is!!!

I'm still not sure what you are trying to say. Lets try and clear this up.

Lets say we have two ex-TWA mechanics who were both hired 30 years ago. Joe Alfa is in JFK and Ed Beta is in MCI. Joe Alfa had more seniority on the TWA list because his name starts with A and his birth date is before Eds. Joe Alfa is in JFK so he only has 25% of his seniority and Ed Beta has 100% in MCI. Both get laid off and there is one less senior mechanic in the system in Tulsa who only has 5/01/01 seniority. Who would get the spot, Joe or Ed?

 

[MCI transplant]

Bob----- What I 'm trying to tell you, aparently not too well, is accourding to art.10e, that man in JFK should be able to bump TUL and bring his 25% with him!!!(not that anyone would want too!!!!) I don't nessarally agree with it, but that's how I read it!!! Kasher gave him that 25%, art.10e gives him the right to excercise it!!!! Same for MCI, or STL!!!

 

[AMFAMAN]

Bob----- What I 'm trying to tell you, aparently not too well, is accourding to art.10e, that man in JFK should be able to bump TUL and bring his 25% with him!!!(not that anyone would want too!!!!) I don't nessarally agree with it, but that's how I read it!!! Kasher gave him that 25%, art.10e gives him the right to excercise it!!!! Same for MCI, or STL!!!

Come on...Do you think for a second that AA is going to allow a bunch of New Yorkers to Bump to Tulsa? They could care less what Kasher says, it's not going to happen.

 

[MCI transplant]

Come on...Do you think for a second that AA is going to allow a bunch of New Yorkers to Bump to Tulsa? They could care less what Kasher says, it's not going to happen.

-------I agree!!!!! Who the hell would want too!!!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

--------And it always seems to get back to those missing grievances!!! Close to 300 of them were written on the 10e issue, and transfer of work, ( Kasher Ruling), over a year go! And it seems our Local Union brothers say they don't know anything about them!!! How do you lose 300 grievances????

Come on...Do you think for a second that AA is going to allow a bunch of New Yorkers to Bump to Tulsa? They could care less what Kasher says, it's not going to happen.

------AMFAMAN, Now there's the problem! If something is "Contractual", aa shouldn't have anything to say about it!!!

 

[AMFAMAN]

--------And it always seems to get back to those missing grievances!!! Close to 300 of them were written on the 10e issue, and transfer of work, ( Kasher Ruling), over a year go! And it seems our Local Union brothers say they don't know anything about them!!! How do you lose 300 grievances????

------AMFAMAN, Now there's the problem! If something is "Contractual", aa shouldn't have anything to say about it!!!

I can agree 100% with AA not having a say but these are the things we have been trying to tell the TWAAers for over 4 years about the twu and the way AA gets what they want. Instead we got the "twu saves jobs" message from TWAAers as they were losing them jobs daily. Hell I still get that message from guys on the street for over a year, the "I don't want to cause any waves because the twu saved my job." My standard reply is," then why are you on the street."

BTW...Does anyone have a copy of their grievance? If so, file a DFR.

 

[MCI transplant]

----------And what pray tell is a "DFR"?????