Kevin Mccormick, Administrator

[Rusty]

Rusty, my name is not Kevin, and I do understand, there lies the problem.

Kevin, fist you say you don't understand then you say you do understand. if you do understand then why do you ask???

I still do not see why an administrator/secretary (for lack of a better definition) would be involved in negotiations beyond taking script of same.

I thought he ran the admin side of AMFA, does AMFA have secretaries doing our bidding.

It is unconceivable to me why you cannot understand Layers and Accountants are a part of our negotiating teams. I do realize that twu Joe Smoe does the negotiating at dinner and bedtime with twuaa but, AMFA is not that way!!!! I do feel sorry for you in that you cannot grasp the concept!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

They didn't happen to notice that the IBT was there first did they Bob? And I see what I get with AMFA if you are any part of it. Such an attribute.


I'll tell you what the TWU tells us "We cant be compared to UPS because they are cargo, its a different industry". Well I dont buy it either but thats been the TWUs excuse. If you no longer want to recognize that fine.

Lets not forget what the IBT said about the TWU leadership.

As far as McCormick signing contracts, in what capacity does he sign them, as a party or as a witness? Our negotiating committee signs the contract too, but only as witnesses as has been proven in court.

 

[Stop the Bus..I Want Off!!]

So you think a couple of Delle's road shows and I'll start speaking in the AMFA tongue? And I'm the one that has a problem, yeah right.


And Gary, I never stated I blamed AMFA, I blamed the TWU members, that's you and that's your cohorts, wether they support AMFA or not.Not sure of what you meant by the "secure your TWU status". My union involvement is my own doing, as is yours, or lack thereof.
But thanks for the AARP suggestion, 5% off @ Mickey D's is working out great!

I think just one AMFA info meeting would help you out considerably. I don't know about the "AMFA tongue" but I know your posts concerning the AMFA would come across as "educated" instead of typical twu garbage.
I do hope you find your way before it is to late. I know that 3 years is not long enough to see through the twus "smoke and mirrors"!!
If you do not possess the ability to learn then you will surely make the same mistakes over, and over, and over.

Keep the Faith......VOTE AMFA!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Steve Connell]

If you do not possess the ability to learn then you will surely make the same mistakes over, and over, and over.

Nightwatch has the right approach, give you respect to love your AMFA and you give us ours to stay a unionist with the TWU. Most rebuttle posts by AMFA supporters/organizers start out with.."stupid", "liar" , "idiot", and you question why there is the slightest hint of hesitation to want to listen. I, as NW has, have done my research, looked at the TWU's track record and AMFA's lack of any. What I have seen with AMFA is not what I see as an asset to my profession. I do see a bunch of unsatisfied members who are using the drive as a personal vendetta against the TWU without concern of their brothers and sisters.

If AMFA does not get the required number of cards on this drive they never will. AMFA has had all the bad press and circumstances to assist this drive, AA has been through the worst of times, you have had the "ears" of disgruntled employees, and still you cannot muster a vote...as Foxworthy would say..."here's your sign". But dave..keep up in your losing proposition.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Steve,
"If AMFA does not get the required number of cards on this drive they never will. AMFA has had all the bad press and circumstances to assist this drive, AA has been through the worst of times, you have had the "ears" of disgruntled employees, and still you cannot muster a vote...as Foxworthy would say..."here's your sign". But dave..keep up in your losing proposition."

If for some reason the NMB rules against a democratic vote the only thing that will create is one more year under a socialistic industrial union control for skilled professionals. There will be another drive and the number of eligible people to vote in our craft and class will be known. Unless of course AA buys another airline, lays more people off, fires more people, more people die and more people quit or leave the twu for management. Then the number of eligible will be more.

AMFA has enough cards signed now for an election.

 

[Steve Connell]

If for some reason the NMB rules against a democratic vote the only thing that will create is one more year under a socialistic industrial union control for skilled professionals. There will be another drive and the number of eligible people to vote in our craft and class will be known. Unless of course AA buys another airline, lays more people off, fires more people, more people die and more people quit or leave the twu for management. Then the number of eligible will be more.

AMFA has enough cards signed now for an election.

Ken,
I like your use of the democratic, my question is what vote isn't? Yes there would be one more year, and one more year of AMFA history to build, for good or for worse. I do not foresee AA buying another airline, I hope we just all keep our employment and survive the cost of fuel and lack of customer confidence in flying as a mode of transport. I also like your confidence in AMFA's card number, we'll see.

I believe we both desire the best for our future, to think otherwise is foolish. We simply do not see the same route to obtain that future.

I'll tell you what the TWU tells us "We cant be compared to UPS because they are cargo, its a different industry". Well I dont buy it either but thats been the TWUs excuse. If you no longer want to recognize that fine.

Bob, since when do you listen to what the TWU tells you? My point was this. You gave credit to AMFA for wages over the $30/HR. mark when you knew they followed the IBT.

With several unions in our industry one union will always be following another at one time or another, common sense mandates that.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, since when do you listen to what the TWU tells you?

Did you read what I wrote? I said I dont buy it either.

My point was this. You gave credit to AMFA for wages over the $30/HR. mark when you knew they followed the IBT.

OK, Ill be more specific- passenger airlines. OK? So are you saying that the IBT is better than the TWU?


With several unions in our industry one union will always be following another at one time or another, common sense mandates that.

With the TWU we will never get what we should. Common sense mandates that all mechanics should be in one union. A union that is for mechanics not a union that will cannabalize our profession to swell the ranks of dues payers.

 

[Steve Connell]

Bob,
It is good to see you have no real grounds for your postings. Stating that "passenger" and "cargo" A&P mechanics should be seen differently in our industry is absurd. Even through your animosity towards the TWU you should see how rediculous that statement was. And at what point did I state the IBT was better than the TWU? Really Bob, perhaps I give you more credit than I should. As I believe the AFL-CIO is an essential entity I believe the unions within that entity are brothers of equal measure. Now you may draw up a chart, post a link to a gay paper, do whatever you desire, bit attempt to keep with the facts as you know them, it was the IBT. not your sweet AMFA that led our industry over the $30/hr. mark.
You seem to lose credibility each time you post, wonder why.

 

[Decision 2004]

Bob,
It is good to see you have no real grounds for your postings. Stating that "passenger" and "cargo" A&P mechanics should be seen differently in our industry is absurd. Even through your animosity towards the TWU you should see how rediculous that statement was. And at what point did I state the IBT was better than the TWU? Really Bob, perhaps I give you more credit than I should. As I believe the AFL-CIO is an essential entity I believe the unions within that entity are brothers of equal measure.

Go spew that crap to the OSM Shop Mechanic that starts at AA under the TWU for under $9.00 perhour, and while you are it, tell that crap to the RIF's A&P working in the OSM shop and not receiving license premium pay.

As long as "you've got yours" Steve. you fail to even see the demise of your own fellow union brothers.

Talk about credibility loss. You are the King!

How many alias' to you have on these and other boards Steve? You are so short on supporters you have to create imaginary friends under many different names.

 

[Bob Owens]

Stating that "passenger" and "cargo" A&P mechanics should be seen differently in our industry is absurd.

I agree. Now tell it to Jim Little and the rest of the TWU. ASk them why we are not making $40/hr like UPS. See what they say.

Even through your animosity towards the TWU you should see how rediculous that statement was. And at what point did I state the IBT was better than the TWU?

Did I say you said it? Here is what I posted; "So are you saying that the IBT is better than the TWU?" Thats what is known as a question Steve, not an accusation. Really Steve, you should read the whole thing first before you jump to conclusions.

Really Bob, perhaps I give you more credit than I should. As I believe the AFL-CIO is an essential entity I believe the unions within that entity are brothers of equal measure.


And why did Jim Little say when the President slapped UAL with a PEB that "its not our fight"? Why did he demand that I retract a statement urging that we support the AFL-CIO represented workers at bankrupt airlines? Why does Jim Little blame everything on the AFL-CIO when he knows how it really works? I think the AFL-CIO is a good idea, but its not a good enough reason to stay with a lousy Union.


Now you may draw up a chart, post a link to a gay paper, do whatever you desire, bit attempt to keep with the facts as you know them, it was the IBT. not your sweet AMFA that led our industry over the $30/hr. mark.

So are you in the Air Cargo Industry or the Passenger Airline Industry? Do you claim that there is no difference between these two industries? While I agree that our responsibilities as mechanics is the same the markets that the two operate in are different. I agree that paywise it should make no difference. While its true that the IBT led the "profession" over the $30/hr mark it was AMFA that led the Passenger Airline Industry, the industry that we are in, over that mark.


You seem to lose credibility each time you post, wonder why.

I'll just consider the source.

 

[Radman]

Ken,
I like your use of the democratic, my question is what vote isn't?

How about our concessionary agreement we are under right now!!!!! If one work group shot it down it was not suppose to pass at all. Tech services voted it down and little jim over turned their vote to have the package pass.

WHAT A CROCK!!!!!!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant:

 

[Nightwatch]

Go spew that crap to the OSM Shop Mechanic that starts at AA under the TWU for under $9.00 perhour, and while you are it, tell that crap to the RIF's A&P working in the OSM shop and not receiving license premium pay.

As long as "you've got yours" Steve. you fail to even see the demise of your own fellow union brothers.

Talk about credibility loss. You are the King!

How many alias' to you have on these and other boards Steve? You are so short on supporters you have to create imaginary friends under many different names.

As long as who has what?
ATTENTION ALL DISSIDENTS



Congratulations to you and your outspoken leaders for correctly defining what a dissident is according to Webster. He wrote in a recent article dissident is defined in the dictionary as; 1.) To sit apart. Disagree. 2.) Offer with an opinion or group. He also admits that the people in reference are in Fact A.M.F.A. supporters. My Question is do you know what the term unity means. Since this term is used in your campaign against the T.W.U., Let us print the definition for everyone to see; 1.) A being united, oneness. 2.) Harmony; Agreement. Now you tell me Mr. Dissident. Which is it going to be? Smart Union Members know the only way to succeed is to Unite. And your confusion on which method of Unionism is best is doing nothing but wasting time, which could be, spent educating and preparing members for the next contract.



You point out the problem in your own article but still fail to see it. It is true that the Majority of members did not vote in the recent officers elections, “that my friend is a direct result of the negative remarks you constantly make about the union. You see it doesn’t matter whether or not your International Union is called T.W.U or A.M.F.A. or Mickey Mouse fan club the strength comes in unity and numbers. How do you see your actions going towards the betterment of organized Labor? Or is it a fact that you were raised to consider only yourself when decision-making is needed on an issue." Punishment has been given to many children for being as inconsiderate of another person’s feelings and needs as your beliefs are.



Your Leader also refers to the last contract as an opportunity of a lifetime. I will admit that the profits being made were as good as you can get as far as pre-contract conditions, but let the membership take any blame for they are the ones who began splitting the ranks with yellow cards and negative literature. We the membership put the International in a position of not having 100 percent support. The conduct of dissidents is not bad when done in a positive way. But, the seeds of negative literature grows nothing but anti-union. Weak links in the chain of strength.



Next we need to again look at the “Majority Rulesâ€￾ he refers to skilled labor as the minority. And claims that by separation from fleet service skilled labor will be the majority. The truth is another division of strength will occur. Plus the skilled welders, machinists, platers and composite would then be the minority with A.M.F.A. Negotiating for A & P’s. Ask yourselves, will these groups then look for their own little union also. When A.M.F.A. goes on strike who will know if the worker crossing the picket line is a mechanic scab or just a machinists abiding by his little contract?



Let it be considered that if the majority does fall on the side of the dissidents as your leader says. Which one of them will be the leader with enough skills to repair the damage to the chain of strength? I have not seen one yet with the true Union beliefs. A true leader has the ability to disagree and seek change in a positive way that is not damaging to organized labor.

Thanks for Reading.



* Written a few years ago by Dave Stewart welder in Tulsa, OK. (Presently co-organizer of Amfa local 12)

Review what Amfa has accomplished at Northwest and United and you will see Dave is correct in his assessment of the last few years and the forecast for the future, if Amfa were to get in at AA. Will this be the pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow? Or, the devastation of our lives-or jobs-or community and the continued slow death of our profession?
[/QUOTE]

 

[Stop the Bus..I Want Off!!]

Nightwatch has the right approach, give you respect to love your AMFA and you give us ours to stay a unionist with the TWU. Most rebuttle posts by AMFA supporters/organizers start out with.."stupid", "liar" , "idiot", and you question why there is the slightest hint of hesitation to want to listen. I, as NW has, have done my research, looked at the TWU's track record and AMFA's lack of any. What I have seen with AMFA is not what I see as an asset to my profession. I do see a bunch of unsatisfied members who are using the drive as a personal vendetta against the TWU without concern of their brothers and sisters.

If AMFA does not get the required number of cards on this drive they never will. AMFA has had all the bad press and circumstances to assist this drive, AA has been through the worst of times, you have had the "ears" of disgruntled employees, and still you cannot muster a vote...as Foxworthy would say..."here's your sign". But dave..keep up in your losing proposition.

Steve,
It is the democratic structure of AMFA that we want. These people you talk about, that make you not want to listen, come from both the twu and AMFA camps. If a personality comes along that is not what we stand for in the AMFA, they are removed from that position by the membership. Can you please tell me how the twu would have done a better job representing the members at ANY AMFA represented airline??
AMFA spends 100% of their efforts trying to better our craft and class. How could this not be an asset to someone in our craft and class. The twus track record is nothing to write home about. I see the AMFA doing everything they can to represent their members. I don't see the twu doing enough for theirs!!
I find it comical that some of the people you despise on this board were in favor of "dovetailing" the TWA guys into our senority list. I would hate to be in your position. It will take all of what you have to maintain what little is left of TWA. If you think the twu will save you, best of luck!! I see the trend the twu is on and we will bleed to death if we don't do something soon!!!!!

Keep the Faith.........VOTE AMFA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nightwatch]

Steve,
It is the democratic structure of AMFA that we want. These people you talk about, that make you not want to listen, come from both the twu and AMFA camps. If a personality comes along that is not what we stand for in the AMFA, they are removed from that position by the membership. Can you please tell me how the twu would have done a better job representing the members at ANY AMFA represented airline??
AMFA spends 100% of their efforts trying to better our craft and class. How could this not be an asset to someone in our craft and class. The twus track record is nothing to write home about. I see the AMFA doing everything they can to represent their members. I don't see the twu doing enough for theirs!!
I find it comical that some of the people you despise on this board were in favor of "dovetailing" the TWA guys into our senority list. I would hate to be in your position. It will take all of what you have to maintain what little is left of TWA. If you think the twu will save you, best of luck!! I see the trend the twu is on and we will bleed to death if we don't do something soon!!!!!

Keep the Faith.........VOTE AMFA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TWU/AMFA Democratic? This is the way I see it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Review what Amfa has accomplished at Northwest and United and you will see Dave is correct in his assessment of the last few years and the forecast for the future, if Amfa were to get in at AA. Will this be the pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow? Or, the devastation of our lives-or jobs-or community and the continued slow death of our profession?

And what do you call this?

With the TWU we have been in a slow decline for over 20 years. You were right to use the phrase "continued slow death". The only uptick followed AMFAs contract at NWA which was the first real raise seen by the mechanics in 20 years. Despite the fact that it was only a three year contract the TWU could not see fit to leave it in place and not only got us the biggest paycut in the industry but stripped us of holidays, vacation, sick time, and other benifits.

As you said if you do not learn from the past you are bound to repeat the same mistakes, staying with the TWU has been a mistake. Believing TWU reps who say "We will get em next time" is a mistake. Staying with a union where those who are in control are not accountable or elected by the members, whose salary is determined not by how well the members are doing but by how many members there are and the revenue they bring in is a mistake. Not getting together with other mechanics so that we dont end up in a bidding war to work for less is a mistake.

Its time to learn from the past. The TWU has done a lousy job for the last twenty years. Its not the members fault. Its the unelected leaders fault. The appointed ATD director who only cares about increasing the dues flow. Every concessionary agreement that has come forth and been approved has been advocated by the TWU International. THe members went where their leaders led them, another mistake. The TWU has prospered off these concessionary contracts. The members have not.

Its obvious that we need to change. THere will be no "change from within". WE need to go to AMFA.