Do You Know? Under Amfa!

[Bob Owens]

Bob, you make it sound as if I did it all? You have the same power as I, one vote. I made my decision based on the documentation that was supplied by all the resources available at the time. Specialist were retained and everyone said the same thing. The membership voted to except the agreement.

At what cost is Amfa increasing the power of your license? If they had any power they would be threatening to strike over the members on layoff at NW, instead they are putting the eggs in one basket and have shoved them under a rock.

It would be nice to collect 6 figures from AA but that is not the case, you make more for many years. Only difference is, I have paid out of my own pocket to purchase the computer and have written the majority of the time on these boards on my own time. I believe in what I am doing and know corporate Amfa is not the way to go, If nothing else the power you will be losing and the amount of layoffs at the airline Amfa is representing should make you think about the reasons you are supporting them. Jim did not choose me to do anything! I made the commitment to participate on my own. I think you are a little confused who I might be?

When a leader fails to represent the members as several have done in the past, they need to be man enough to step aside and allow someone else to continue. In your case you were so ate up in not believing you lost sight of why you took the oath to help the membership. You and others in an elected position at one time should have stepped up and supported the institution you took an oath to uphold. Instead you choose to degrade the institute and blame everyone else. It is the responsibility of a president or treasurer to portray an image. And do the right thing even though you did not agree with a decission.. It is easy to blame the International; you know many will still blame the amfa national if they were to win an election, when in reality the only person to blame is yourself.

Look at the difference in Tulsa vs. AFW or JFK? In Tulsa the TWU leadership takes the lead in the decision-making and takes the lead IN THE FAILURES. Unlike The other two stations, they take credit where credit is due and blame someone else when it fails. The card count shows this. And it is evident no matter where you go in the system, the Local is only as good as the leaders, and the members allow them to be. You know As well as I do if you have a weak President or even a shop steward for that fact, Amfa is successful at getting cards signed. I have seen this in areas thru-out the Tulsa base. It's interesting watching the movement of personal. It has always been a known fact in hanger 3 certain docks were hard Amfa supporters, now the members have moved around, the support has diminished in hanger 3 and increased in the Cam Building. Andthe membership signing cards has diminished greatly. Even though we have a weak President. The other officers and members have stepped up and taken up the slack. That is because the members believe in what they are doing. And not everyone is going to agree on everything all the time.

Amfa is not the way to go and I believe you understand this, amfa has to many what ifs and AA membership will suffer greatly in the short term.

If you voted yes then you did it. You are just as guilty as any other yes voter.

All the resources available at the time? Do you mean Eclat, the same company that AA used to make the presentation to the unions highlighting the company's difficulties?

AMFA is pursueing their grievance. What ever happened to our Grievance? Little said at the Convention that "We will win the Grievance but bankrupt the company". Is that when all of this started?

Post on your own time on your own computer? Big deal so does everyone else.

Who are you then?

When elected leaders fail to represent their members the members can vote them out. Over 90% of our members voted no, I would say that I represented them.

So ate up in not believing? What do you think this is some type of cult? For over 20 years this union has led the industry in concessions. Maybe you dont feel it because you probably still live well. Tulsa is one of the cheapest places in the country to live. We have people with many years walking in and quitting because out here this is not a good wage for people of our skill level. What exactly is it that you think I should believe in? That we should all happily accept a continued decline in our standard of living because unelected unaccountable officials who are not sharing in the concessions tell us to?

You accuse me of blaming everyone else for our failures. So you admit that this agreement is a failure. A failure that was promoted by our International through a mailout, a one sided mailout that did not offer the members any alternate plan other than accepting the companys demands down to the last penny. Where was the leadership that told us how we could fight this? Why didnt these unaccountable, appointed leaders take the same paycuts?

I took this job to represent the people who elected me not to blindly follow cowardly idiots like Sonny Hall and Jim Little as they destroy our careers. As they lead us into the slaughterhouse telling us that it will go easier if we do not resist. If we are going to give the company what they want then why do we need a union? So guys like you can walk around feeling important? So you can get the minority of guys who get into trouble off the hook?

My responsibility as an elected official is to represent the people who put me there, not to be a front man for people that our members can not vote out. If I am there to serve the International then why dont we simply do away with all the elections and let the International appoint Local "leaders"?

The difference between Tulsa and JFK, go ahead and look. There is more division in Tulsa than JFK. As I said over 90% of us voted NO, thats a pretty united group. Even more have filled out cards for AMFA. What was the spread in TULSA? If only we had the money and the addresses then we could have sent our message to every members home in Tulsa to balance out what the company, I mean union, what the heck not much difference now is there, then maybe we would not have been stuck with this agreement.

Who should we blame for this agreement? The people who voted YES or the people who voted NO?


How do you charectize a strong steward? Someone who says "they can do that" and "We better vote yes and give away everything that was gained over the last 50 years because we dont want to fight" and then gets tough by threatening someone if they sign a card? The fact is that weak leaders at the top and at Locals like 514 set back the labor movement 50 years. In the past people struck to get 50cents but you guys voted to give away everything with out any fight whatsoever. You are not a "union man". No union man would ever agree to what we agreed to. From what you post,you apparently are simply a cult member who believes that we are here to serve Sonny Hall.

Sonny Hall is not a King. He is supposed to work for and be answerable to us, after all we pay him, not the other way around. I never lost sight of the fact that the Locals money came from the members. I believe that Sonny Hall, after 50 years of getting checks from AA has lost sight of who he is supposed to represent. Too much hobnobbing with the suits.

Tell me why Sonny Hall will not attend the NYC Labor Day parade but as a board member of the arthritus foundation he will present awards to a member of management at NYC Transit that has a reputation for being extremely hostile to the Union?

Why is it that Sonny feels very comfortable with management but avoids any chance to meet with his members?

Why were there more members of management at Koziateks party than members? Koziatek would not face the members either.

I dont hate the TWU, I hate what people like Sonny Hall, Jim Little and all the other self serving cowards that have conived and schemed their way off the shop floor and into positions of power within our union have done to it. I hate the fact that they expect us to just accept declining standards of living while they reap huge rewards for themselves.

I hate that any criticism of their policies that they form without the consent or approval of the membership is considered treason. They are the ones who have betrayed the Constitution. They are the ones who resist reasonable demands from the members for some measure of accountability.

Why wont they even put in an accountable voting method at the Convention?

Why does it take more than two years to release the minutes of the Convention?

Why does Sonny press charges and then refuse to testify as to how he determined that charges were in order?

You may accept Sonny as you "better". Someone to entrust your well being to but I dont. In fact I think he is a thug. If we cant get rid of Sonny, Little et al then we still have other options.

The certainties of the TWU, based upon its performance over the last twenty years make "what ifs" very attractive. "What ifs" at least offer hope. What does the TWU offer? More of what we have seen for the last 20 years?

Down there in Tulsa the bow is still high out of the water. Those of us down near the water line see things differently. You can take your chances by saying how much safer we are on this sinking ship, I'll take mine on the lifeboat.

The TWUs extreme reaction to criticism and refusal to change leaves us with few options. Accept a continuation where we constantly lose or just leave.

You are one of those who always said "Get involved" , well I did, the International's reaction shows me that they are completely out of touch with the members, the Emporer has no cloths, and those who tell him are traitors. Its time to leave.

Like I said before, the "what ifs" are better than what Sonny, Little and the other flunkies have to offer.

 

[Buck]

3. The following categories of expenditure are chargeable to the extent
permitted by law.

a. All expenses concerning the negotiation of agreements, practices and working conditions.

b. All expenses concerning the administration of agreements, practices and working conditions, including grievance handling, all activities related to arbitration, and discussion with employees in the bargaining unit or employer representatives regarding working conditions, benefits and contract rights.

c. Convention expenses and other normal Union internal governance and management expenses.

d. Social activities and Union business meeting expenses.

e. Publication, expenses to the extent coverage is related to chargeable
activities.

f. Expenses of litigation before the courts and administrative agencies related to contract administration, collective bargaining rights and internal internal
governance.

g. Expenses for legislative, executive branch and administrative agency
representation on legislative and regulatory matters closely related to
the negotiation or administration of contracts and working conditions.

h. All expenses for the education and training of members, officers and staff intended to prepare the participants to better perform chargeable activities.

i. Other costs of group cohesion and economic action, e.g., demonstrations,
general strike activity, informational picketing, etc.

j. An appropriate portion of overhead and administrative expenses.

 

[Drippy Quill]

Boooby...please limit your post's length..I'm having to get cable to download fast enuff to have time to read your poo...hahahahahaha..jeeeesh man..can I hear one more time how expensive it is to live in NY?...and how the O/H bases are dragging ya down?...newsflash to ya Booby....MOVE TO MCI..we'll take care of ya here and find a good ole pig farmer to befriend ya...hahahahahaha...squeal Lucille....hahahahaha...and Booby ...cause a bruddah voted to take a concession he's GUILTY? of what Booby..not listening to you dummie..hey biggun..that's why they call it a vote...it didn't say vote No to be innocent..hahahahahaha..now Booby...go kiss yo mirror and tell yourself ..." they want me,they want me,they want me,they want me,they want me,they want me,they want me,...you hunter you...hahahahahaha

 

[j7915]

3. The following categories of expenditure are chargeable to the extent
permitted by law.

a. All expenses concerning the negotiation of agreements, practices and working conditions.

b. All expenses concerning the administration of agreements, practices and working conditions, including grievance handling, all activities related to arbitration, and discussion with employees in the bargaining unit or employer representatives regarding working conditions, benefits and contract rights.

c. Convention expenses and other normal Union internal governance and management expenses.

d. Social activities and Union business meeting expenses.

e. Publication, expenses to the extent coverage is related to chargeable
activities.

f. Expenses of litigation before the courts and administrative agencies related to contract administration, collective bargaining rights and internal internal
governance.

g. Expenses for legislative, executive branch and administrative agency
representation on legislative and regulatory matters closely related to
the negotiation or administration of contracts and working conditions.

h. All expenses for the education and training of members, officers and staff intended to prepare the participants to better perform chargeable activities.

i. Other costs of group cohesion and economic action, e.g., demonstrations,
general strike activity, informational picketing, etc.

j. An appropriate portion of overhead and administrative expenses.

Thanks Buck. Now why don't we just let a contract for a good negotiator every so often when the contract comes up?

I am sort of dis-appointed, why I don't know. I hoped for your opinions on the subject not a cut and paste with out refference to the source.

cheers!

 

[Buck]

TWU Agency Fee Policy

Here is your source, The TWU.

My opinion is that the payment of dues for those items spelled out in the policy as Chargeable are acceptable. However those items which are not Chargeable should not be part of the required dues to run the union.


Now why don't we just let a contract for a good negotiator every so often when the contract comes up?


I am not sure what you are asking.

 

[Checking it Out]

Here's Real Integrity!

Local 33 vice-president Ted Ludwig must have missed the classified ad in the Star Tribune Sept. 28th. or he would have included it in his Job openings webpage! (see ad at left) Local 33's only help to laid off members is the Lay Off Help Pad. No Grievances on Farm outs, they can't file any! AMFA has agreed to 100% farm out rate at NWA, with a financial penalty paid to the AMFA national if 38% is exceeded.

Steve Eilers the former building "B" shop representative is doing more than that for the members! He's creating jobs! Steve is the same representative that signed his own deal to stay on the property long after his seniority would allow! It was so he could "continue to service the members", well you just got serviced. Steve used his extended time to his own advantage. Steve has accepted position as Staff Manger OUTSIDE REPAIR with Northwest Airlines! Click Here to view job announcement.

When NWA announced that they were closing building "B" in MSP, Air Base Services opened a shop in nearby Inver Grove Heights. They are all ready doing some of our work! Steve is to assist in the outsourcing of our work to Air Base Services and other vendors.

The ECMO mangers were required to attend "corner stone" training with human relations, when the closure of building "B" was announced. It was a training class in how to deal with job loss, your own! It was revealed in that class that NWA had exceeded the 38% farm out level as defined by AMFA, and NWA has no intension of paying the penalty! Ask one of the ECMO mangers! Click Here to view Senior Vice President Labor Relations: Robert Brodin's Letter informing AMFA that NWA doesn't intend to pay any farm out penalty






Check the full Information

 

[Rusty]

CIO, I can see you don't understand the farm-out rule in the NW-AMFA contract. If NW goes over the 38% there is a penalty equal to the amount over that percenatge being farmed-Out and the company has to pay the overage amount but, that does not mean the company can just keep the work farmed out over the 38% mark. The work must come back or just like any thing else in the industry a grievance is filed. Just like if AA were to Farm-Out over 50% of our work here.

Two years ago G. T. Bunch came to us on a farm out of some work in my shop. He stated that the TWU had no idea how much work was being farmed out. He also stated that there was no way to track the work that was being farmed out. I see the TWU would like to believe it is around 21% or so but, they really have no idea!!! I do know the our contract allows up to 50% but, if it goes over that amount there is still no penalty but a grievance can be filed and if won the work will come back.

Here at AA we also have an In-House Farm-Out policy that allows mechanics work to be done cheaper than a 3rd party would charge but, the TWU still gets dues, so that makes it OK RIGHT??? This is the OSM category and I believe it is time to make these people mechanics as they are doing mechanics work and they should be paid mechanics wages.

Now if you take the TWU's figure (which is a complete falsehood) of 21% and add the 20% OSM work to that figure AA is at a lieing 41%.

 

[PORKCHOP]

Does Northwest outsource all of what we consider OSM WORK. If so what do we do with all these mech.

 

[Rusty]

I see no reason to out-source the OSM work. NW mechanics do some of the same work as the OSM's are doing right here. The TWU has negotiated B and C scales before which is basically the same thing under a different name. If we continue to have different pay scales for our work, it will continue to put downward pressure on all wages and benefits across the AMFA union Nation wide.

Just because NW negotiated 38% doesn't mean we have to. As a matter of fact I would think we need to leapfrog the NW contract. It's just non-sense that any union would willingly let their work be farmed out except maybe in the case of Cabin Cleaners where the TWU let the work be out-Sourced to keep Fleet Services sick time but, in that case the work went to another company that was represented by the TWU.

Take a look at the video from the AMFA info meeting and listen to McCormick on how they keep tight figures on the amount of out-sourced work. The McCormick group has a system in place to account for every piece of work then compare that to the "we have no idea" and the "we have no way of keeping track of it" system of the TWU. The McCormick group is worth every penny in this respect!!!

The new lie sytem of the TWU says different but, go to the csd shop and ask around about what G, T. Bunch has siad about Out-Sourced work in the past.

 

[Raptor]

Cards are still coming and the TWU will be gone soon.

AMFA Now

 

[j7915]

TWU Agency Fee Policy

Here is your source, The TWU.

My opinion is that the payment of dues for those items spelled out in the policy as Chargeable are acceptable. However those items which are not Chargeable should not be part of the required dues to run the union.


Now why don't we just let a contract for a good negotiator every so often when the contract comes up?


I am not sure what you are asking.

Buck let me re-phrase my posting: before every contract the union lets out a bid for a negotiator, he gets paid for that contract and the rest of the time we don't need a union, which is exactely what we would have with AMFA.

Correct me if I am wrong, but under AMFA every local pretty much does its own thing at the direction of its members, there seems to be no guidance for a co-ordinated effort from the National, except when it comes to collecting dues and fees for negotiations.

There is no central guidance to protect your precious craft and class, or more specifically your "profession of aircraft mechanic". It is all up to the individual members anyway. So why bother with an administrator? why bother with a figure head?

Let each local do what it wants and negotiate its own deal, that is how professionals negotiate contracts by the way, they either hire a "head hunter" or do it themselves face to face and individually.

 

[TonyB]

I just love that AMFA Nuts web site! A site of losers, by losers and for losers!
These clowns state that Delle hasn't used his A+P in so many years.
At least Delle has an A+P!
Where's Sonny Hall's A+P?
Where's Jim Little's A+P?
What about that TWU poster boy Kirk Wells?

You TWU punks are a laugh riot! Keep it comming!

 

[TonyB]

Can any one tell us how the IAM drive is comming along at NWA!
What's the card count?
Maybe Kirk Wells can go over and spear head a TWU drive!
ROFLMAO!

 

[Buck]

TWU Agency Fee Policy

Here is your source, The TWU.

My opinion is that the payment of dues for those items spelled out in the policy as Chargeable are acceptable. However those items which are not Chargeable should not be part of the required dues to run the union.


Now why don't we just let a contract for a good negotiator every so often when the contract comes up?


I am not sure what you are asking.

Buck let me re-phrase my posting: before every contract the union lets out a bid for a negotiator, he gets paid for that contract and the rest of the time we don't need a union, which is exactely what we would have with AMFA.

Correct me if I am wrong, but under AMFA every local pretty much does its own thing at the direction of its members, there seems to be no guidance for a co-ordinated effort from the National, except when it comes to collecting dues and fees for negotiations.

There is no central guidance to protect your precious craft and class, or more specifically your "profession of aircraft mechanic". It is all up to the individual members anyway. So why bother with an administrator? why bother with a figure head?

Let each local do what it wants and negotiate its own deal, that is how professionals negotiate contracts by the way, they either hire a "head hunter" or do it themselves face to face and individually.

What do you mean the union lets out a bid for a negotiator? Are you telling me that the TWU hires an independant negotiator? Or are you referring to the professionals the union claims to hire? What do you mean the rest of the time we don't need a union? Why would AMFA National not help in Negotiations or contract administration?

I do not believe you have ever read the AMFA constitution?

Please read this document before you make assumptions.