Ladies and Gentlemen:How do we best fix this mess?

[EastUS]

I'm very much concerned for the future of all of us at this point. The seniority arbitration produced award results that are proving utterly poisonous to all involved. The rancour that's been seen on these boards in recent days is but the tip of the iceberg I'm afraid. Neither east nor west can fully appreciate each other's basis for anger it seems. From everything I've heard in cockpits and crew rooms; It's my earnest belief that this was the "last straw" for "easties" and will be fought by ANY means available. The voiced assumption seen on these boards that the top placed pilots, and/or captains at USEast will just shrug and go along with it appears to be without any actual merit.

The outrage given by AWA posters after seeing a presumably good deal, and having it immediately denounced by the east is also palpable. I must note that notions/fantasies of "career expectations" were long ago drowned in bitter laughter in the east. Most of us have a closet full of airline uniforms by way of mergers/acquisitions/etc.

Fighting amongst the pilot group will produce NOTHING especially great for either "side"...and now that sides/swords have been drawn...the alleged "management" will do their best to devastate all of us...and they seem to be beyond their depth at even trying to run a functional airline as it is.

The "it's over...shove it bozos" AWA approach isn't going to yield up anything positve, or actually workable. The "burn it to the ground" response from the East is not likely to benefit anyone either.

For just one brief moment..may we all try and actually think of some way to actually/seriously/no BS, work this out?

 

[TheNewLowFare]

Pretty tragic! I've heard east pilots wants seperate contract and some of the west f/a's wants seperate contract. Management wants to keep the workforce divided and has no problem giving us seperate contracts. Looks like the company succeeded in dividing us. How can we get a good single contract in the future if we are divided and no support from each other? This really sucks !

 

[ggiby]

Pretty tragic! I've heard east pilots wants seperate contract and some of the west f/a's wants seperate contract. Management wants to keep the workforce divided and has no problem giving us seperate contracts. Looks like the company succeeded in dividing us. How can we get a good single contract in the future if we are divided and no support from each other? This really sucks !

The only reason the West f/a's want a seperate contract is because we were Fairly..... repeat Fairly given Date of Hire.... which... the Pilots should have gotten too... however.... the Pilots screwed themselves w/ ALPA... during the US/UA merger thing..... but they did not deserve this.....

 

[EastUS]

I'm very much concerned for the future of all of us at this point. The seniority arbitration produced award results that are proving utterly poisonous to all involved. The rancour that's been seen on these boards in recent days is but the tip of the iceberg I'm afraid. Neither east nor west can fully appreciate each other's basis for anger it seems. From everything I've heard in cockpits and crew rooms; It's my earnest belief that this was the "last straw" for "easties" and will be fought by ANY means available. The voiced assumption seen on these boards that the top placed pilots, and/or captains at USEast will just shrug and go along with it appears to be without any actual merit.

The outrage given by AWA posters after seeing a presumably good deal, and having it immediately denounced by the east is also palpable. I must note that notions/fantasies of "career expectations" were long ago drowned in bitter laughter in the east. Most of us have a closet full of airline uniforms by way of mergers/acquisitions/etc.

Fighting amongst the pilot group will produce NOTHING especially great for either "side"...and now that sides/swords have been drawn...the alleged "management" will do their best to devastate all of us...and they seem to be beyond their depth at even trying to run a functional airline as it is.

The "it's over...shove it bozos" AWA approach isn't going to yield up anything positve, or actually workable. The "burn it to the ground" response from the East is not likely to benefit anyone either.

For just one brief moment..may we all try and actually think of some way to actually/seriously/no BS, work this out?


Guys....this has gotten far past "not funny", and we truly need to try and come up with some degree of a solution..or things are going to get seriously ugly for all of us very soon.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

The rancour that's been seen on these boards in recent days is but the tip of the iceberg I'm afraid.

I have to disagree with you. I think these boards are worse then anything outside of these boards and they are everything but the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Pretty tragic! I've heard east pilots wants seperate contract and some of the west f/a's wants seperate contract. Management wants to keep the workforce divided and has no problem giving us seperate contracts. Looks like the company succeeded in dividing us. How can we get a good single contract in the future if we are divided and no support from each other? This really sucks !

Excuse me but did the company preplan all this? Lets see...have a merger and keep the Pilots separate and divided by handing down a arbitration award that would infuriate the East Pilots enough that they would never sign on to a single CBA. The only problem with that is the ALPA Merger Policy was used to give this arbitration award. Oh I forgot to take into account the cystal ball the company has. Get over blaming others. The East union put you where you are today. No worries though it will blow over and the East will except what they brought upon themselves.

 

[USCREW]

I have to disagree with you. I think these boards are worse then anything outside of these boards and they are everything but the tip of the iceberg.

Are you West? Because when I'm at work, I see our pilots huddled in groups everywhere discussing this situation. I see the outrage amongst them as well as the flight attendants. I haven't seen the pilots so pissed off ever, and they're a group that has endured a lot! There's nothing left to lose and I've heard over and over from the West that, "Well, at least you still have a job...". It's insulting. I can't imagine East and West crews working together at this point.
Give the East pilots a decent retirement package and the Westies can eventually inherit all the positions.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Can you give us the math formula (with numbers plugged in) that you used to determine from posts on this board that led you to that 10-15% number of Pilots wanting to bring company to its knees. Also what is your definition of a Pilot that wants to bring "the company to its knees"? Is he/she disgruntled for any number of reasons and wants to see the company fail?

Are you West? Because when I'm at work, I see our pilots huddled in groups everywhere discussing this situation. I see the outrage amongst them as well as the flight attendants. I haven't seen the pilots so pissed off ever, and they're a group that has endured a lot! There's nothing left to lose and I've heard over and over from the West that, "Well, at least you still have a job...". It's insulting. I can't imagine East and West crews working together at this point.
Give the East pilots a decent retirement package and the Westies can eventually inherit all the positions.

Of course they are venting at the water cooler who would expect anything less?

There is nothing left to lose? Is that just a personal assessment of your situation? The company going under putting everyone out on the street and having to start at ground zero is nothing left to lose? Is throwing in the towel saying to hell with my family I have nothing left to lose so I am going to break this company because of those dang West Pilots intentionally screwing me for their own gain. Yeah lets take them down.

Have all you "take the company down" Pilots already informed your family of your intentions to start over somewhere and to tighten up the budget?

 

[USCREW]

There is nothing left to lose? Is that just a personal assessment of your situation?

My situation? I'm in the medical field and will never have any numbnut with less education or experience take my job.

 

[Travelpro72]

I can tell you that sitting in the crew room for a few days I have talked to a few pilots and overheard some conversations throughout the day. Let me tell you that this isn't gonna be pretty. I really don't want to see everyone against each other but it is a BIG deal regardless of who was responsible and what the EAST pilots knew. The point is it's done and they are NOT gonna sit by and just go with the flow. As for the pilots "bringing the company to it's knees" I don't think that it's their true desire but when you are screwed as bad as they just were and all they have endured what do you expect these folks to do? If the flight attendants/mechanics or rampers were to strike for their own reasons and union/company battles it effects everyone but THAT'S THE WAY IT IS! ! ! ! Does it hurt and cause some fear? SURE. I don't hear of anyone at work that really says they are fine with how the pilots were wronged. I think at home their families are most likely in support of their decisions. As a spouse of a pilot I'm sure they have endured all the crap right along with their husband/wife as a US employee. What else do THEY have left to lose? I know in the end you LIVE and you BREATHE and MOVE ON. Where theres a will theres a way. This summer isn't gonna be pretty folks. I know MANY f/a's DO support the pilots for the simple fact of how the whole DOH thing boiled between east/west in the past. They see how it COULD have effected them if it HAD not gone DOH.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Why certainly! It was HIGHLY unscientific. I browsed all the most recent threads and counted people I believe to be pilots (based on their posts) and I think I came up with just about 50 (47 IIRC) and multiplied by 10 getting 470 which os somewhere around 10% of the total pilot groups IIRC from the Nicolau Award Document.

I think the phrase "Bringing the Company to its knees" can be taken a few ways. I know I can think of several ways. Unfortunately I have to go into a meeting and I've not time to expand on the question your raise right now. Perhaps others can contribute what the line means to them and we can all gain a fuller picture.
Bob

Well since we are dealing with such HIGHLY unscientific things how about explaining why those 50 Pilots haven't made their voice known in my poll?

Did East Pilots agree to binding arbitration?(of course this should be 100% yes. So we know they don't have a clue or are liars.
yes 34 no 9
79.07% to 20.93%

Should East Pilots live up to their word?
yes 33 no 10
76.74% to 23.26%

Are all these bad sport East Pilots posting just a bunch of hotair?
yes 25 no 18
58.14% to 41.86%

Hmm maybe they are shy about voting.

 

[autofixer]

No...you should be a political hack. Those questions were written to get YOUR desired response.

 

[soc-hpjester]

Charlie Tuna, I think that is the first correct thing you have said on this board. The sandcastle couldn't care less if the unions merge or not. We should stay seperate ops. Merge the certs, give the east pilots the pay raise, give the west ramp/gate agents the raise keep occ in PIT, and keep soc in PHX and be done with all this.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Frankly Charlie I expected better from you than that farce of a poll you have running. Statisicaly it's USELESS as there is no way to verify whether the respondents are part of the target group i.e US East Pilots.

And your math formula is isn't just as useless? Frankly Bob I knew you wouldn't catch the irony in my post and you didn't disappoint. Thanks for my smile and laugh and good way to start off the day!

Uh..by the way I DO know that 50 disgruntled Pilots DIDN'T vote in the poll so your comparison East vs West means nothing and is also useless.

As usual in your posts you got to start talking about you to build your ego up. You oh greatest LOADED" question writer and expert of them ALL!!!

Oh yes I did love chewing on your "loaded" math formula..It nice to see you brought your expertise to that area too

 

[autofixer]

Piney, The poll reflects his opinions as he sees things. It is embarrasing to him. I will be waiting to see how he sees things after the next merger and we are all stapled to a UAL list; junior to their newhires. This precedent will be disasterous, but what do I care? I have all ready suffered the injustice; like Russians in the Gulag for telling jokes about party officials, so now they can freely tell jokes while in the Gulag.