Larry Pike of 567 FIRED ?

[Overspeed]

No it didn't; the IAM CBAs at NW still had it.

The IAM represented the AMTs at NW?

 

[700UW]

For many years until they voted them out and voted AMFA in.

 

[737823]

For many years until they voted them out and voted AMFA in.

The IAM must have done such a great job for the NWA AMTs I'm sure. That's why the IAM hates AMFA and wanted to scab and undermine their strike, they took your dues payers. And if the IAM did such a good job for ramp, customer service and other NW workgroups why did they get decertified in the September-October 2010 election after the DL merger?

Josh

 

[Overspeed]

Hmm, but we also gave up a week of vacation for the last 9 years, our peers who went through BK kept that and still have it.

We also lost five holidays for the last 9 years and only get four hours pay for eight hours work on the 5 we supposedly kept, our peers kept most of their holidays and still at least get full pay if they work them.

We also lost 7 sick days and a days pay for the first two we call in sick, our peers kept more sick time than us.

We also lost IOD time, our peers kept more IOD time than us.

We gave all that up to save the stuff we lost anyway, we gave up real money in the here and now for the last 9 years for the promise of the pension and retiree medical in the future. Now they are gone, you say we have an extra 9 years in the pension, well we more than paid for it with the extra week we work for no pay, the holidays we work for no extra pay and the sick time we lost. Figure it out. The 9 years adds at the most $850/month to our pension at 60 years of age. Not even counting the wage cuts we paid for that extra $850 by giving back over $12000 in vacation and counting, over $30,000 in holiday pay (and counting)and we wont even bother looking at the other stuff. By the time I'm 60 I will have worked 18 more weeks than I should have, would have if I was employed elsewhere, for no extra pay and lost the equivelent of 1800 hours of Holiday pay. So that extra $850 that I might live to see will have cost me roughly $85,000 in vacation and Holidays and at least another $34000 from not getting the 401K match the last 9 years. So that $850 that I may see in my pension someday will have cost me at least $118,000 by the time I collect my first check.

AA kept the pension for another nine years, and underfunded it, in part thanks to us lobbying Congress to allow them to underfund it. The company admitted in negotiations that switching over to the DC would actually cost them more now, but that in the future (like when they had to make up for underfunding it) they expected the DC to save them money.

UAL still has retiree medical and unlike what AA is offering us its not 100% funded by the retiree, there is an offset for years with the company.

Work rules? Like 1.75X for all hours away on a FT vs 1.5x only for those hours in excess of eight with the right to pull us off the clock and bring us back on straight time while on a FT? How about straight time pay for training? How about Contractual CS rules vs at managements discretion? How about DAT days vs nothing? How about just about every Article in our contract being inferior?

Your spins are being slowed down by the facts Overspeed. Give it up, admit that this is worst contract to be working under in the industry, that there needs to be changes in the way the TWU does things and the results they get for mechanics or the mechanics will have no option other than getting rid of the TWU. Take the first of the twelve steps away from your addiction to lies.

It's all about perspective Bob. From your occ seniority date this is a crappy contract and I agree, I would like to have all the pre-2001 benefits. A decision was made with the old presidents at that time and they chose a combination of jobs and pay. So, we could all be in the UA, US, NW, or DL boat where thousands of jobs were lost to outsourcing. From the perspective of the laid off ones the received no benefits of the deals you want. They are on the street looking for a job and any claim that they all got better jobs is BS. The BLS states that more than half people who lost their jobs in this industry never made even close to the same pay they made before they were laid off. But that doesn't matter to you Bob. As long as you got yours who cares to the overhaul AMTs. Market rate right Bob? Market rate in the U.S. for you and market rate in El Salvador or China for them.

 

[Overspeed]

Hey Don,

Your understanding of negotiations means mimicking everything the company says. Then pushing a concessionary contract. Wish you would negotiate your pay and benefits the way you negotiate our pay and benefits.

I am sure Don V was very good at cutting you a deal on your transfer to DFW to be with your family as well.

 

[Overspeed]

Please enlighten me as to when AMFA has given up jobs for more pay?

Here at SWA, we have never given up any jobs.
What the heck are you talking about?

It's simple really. When you don't bring in work or allow greater outsourcing to El Salvador that's a cost offset to WN that enables management to maintain internal rates of pay. Why do you think Sokol is asking to "buy back" the 4th line? So he can outsource another line that would done by WN AMFA AMTs at $40 plus an hour to a line in El Salvador with AMTs making $5 an hour. WN could have afforded to add more lines of HC internally over the past ten years and still have made a hug profit and not hinder their growth. Instead AMFA agreed to the El Salvador deal and extended the IBT contract on pay rates.

That's swapping jobs for pay when you could have kept pay and added work.

 

[Overspeed]

What about AFW? 35% spend outsourcing? Thousands upon thousands of job losses? Not due to a change in unions, but in fact "agreed to" by your union (TWU) with the co. Let me repeat "agreed to". No fight, No vote NO campaign like the pilots did. No nothing! The mechanics would be back at the table nego a contract, just like the pilots did. But Nooooooo, the TWU recomends a yes vote from it's members. "Agreed to" Big difference than rejecting the contract and having one forced upon you, like the pilots did, and getting back to the table and nego a better than original deal, like the pilots just did. "Agreed to". BTW I will leave you with one last question; did I mention that the TWU "Agreed to" All the current conccessions that they instructed the entire membership to vote in? "Agreed to"

We are in BK. 1113c is not negotiations. The recommendation to vote yes was based on the highly probable potential of over 50% outsourcing. By voting yes the buy out prevented thousands of involuntary job losses.

 

[swamt]

We are in BK. 1113c is not negotiations. The recommendation to vote yes was based on the highly probable potential of over 50% outsourcing. By voting yes the buy out prevented thousands of involuntary job losses.

Spin it how you want. The 35% spend limit will in fact be larger than 35% outsourcing of the fleet. It will be more in line with 40-60% of maint will be outsourced. You still are having thousands upon thousands of members loose their jobs, period. So buy you own words above. It's ok to outsource as much as 50% (average) maint. It's ok to take pay cuts. It's ok to take bennie cuts. It's ok to lay-off thousands of mechs. Push, push , push and campain for a yes vote for all these concessions, job cuts, pay cuts, bennies cuts, retirement cuts, when does it all stop O/S? WHEN?? The TWU not only agreed to all this they pushed it to sell by the membership. When was the the last time the TWU voted in a contract? Oh yea. It was 2003, where yet again, the co union TWU AGREED TO and campained a yes vote to, yet again, more and more concessions and job losses. All just so you guys can keep your pensions. Only for the union to AGREE to let it go in 2012 and get even more conccessions and job losses.
BTW: BK ch 11, 1113c is nego's. It may be a different type, but it is still nego's. Just ask the pilots, they know how to do it. But you are correct with the TWU---How could it be nego's with the TWU when they continiously AGREE with the co for concessions, job losses, pay cuts, retirement cuts, ect.... And they have been doing it for decades. Time for the TWU to go.

 

[WNMECH]

It's simple really. When you don't bring in work or allow greater outsourcing to El Salvador that's a cost offset to WN that enables management to maintain internal rates of pay. Why do you think Sokol is asking to "buy back" the 4th line? So he can outsource another line that would done by WN AMFA AMTs at $40 plus an hour to a line in El Salvador with AMTs making $5 an hour. WN could have afforded to add more lines of HC internally over the past ten years and still have made a hug profit and not hinder their growth. Instead AMFA agreed to the El Salvador deal and extended the IBT contract on pay rates.

That's swapping jobs for pay when you could have kept pay and added work.

You can try to twist anything you want to try to prove your made up assertion that we gave up jobs for pay, but the facts are on my side.

The worked moved to Ei Salvador was work that was already outsourced somewhere else. No AMFA jobs given up there.

The fact is that in the same contract negotiation that we allowed that move, we also added the language that gave us a new 4th line of maintenance. Adding AMFA jobs.

We don't care that the company wants the 4th line back. We told them NO.
AMFA's position was made clear to them on the first day of our new contract talks.
The forth line is ours and the company is still hiring mechanics to be ready to start it.

That is right, we have ADDED mechanics every year I have been here and are still hiring more today. I also have received a raise EVERY YEAR that I have been here.

Even after bringing on all the AirTran guys, we are still hiring.

Where are all these job losses you claim?

Maybe you should look at the TWU for the answer. They seem to only want to give up money at every chance, and now they are giving up money AND jobs this time.

Looks to me like the TWU only wants as many dues payers as they can get, no matter how low their wages get.

 

[Overspeed]

For many years until they voted them out and voted AMFA in.

When NW was in BK?

 

[737823]

When NW was in BK?

NWA filed Ch 11 September 14, 2005 the same date as Delta; and emerged May 31, 2007.

However the AMTs left the IAM in 1997, because the IAM did such a great awful job representing them, hopefully not too different than the TWU at AA come 2013. I guess they were upset AMFA took their duespayers, clearly the IAM considered the NWA workers expendable.

The Machinists union, which represents gate agents and other ground crew workers at Northwest, holds a grudge against AMFA, which has gained most of its members by decertifying IAM units. Northwest mechanics and cleaners left the IAM for AMFA in 1997.

IAM Vice President Robert Roach has said, “IAM members will not be duped into standing with AMFA."

Schalk called the IAM’s statements “very disturbing,” saying, “These labor leaders are acting like children. When workers are striking, you don’t cross the lines. We shouldn’t have to remind people about that.”

Some IAM members have not only been crossing the lines, but also taking on AMFA members’ work. “To cross a picket line is bad enough,” said Yubian, “but crossing a picket line to do struck work—you shouldn’t even be in a union.”

http://oreaddaily.bl...mfa-strike.html

Josh

 

[Overspeed]

You can try to twist anything you want to try to prove your made up assertion that we gave up jobs for pay, but the facts are on my side.

The worked moved to Ei Salvador was work that was already outsourced somewhere else. No AMFA jobs given up there.

The fact is that in the same contract negotiation that we allowed that move, we also added the language that gave us a new 4th line of maintenance. Adding AMFA jobs.

We don't care that the company wants the 4th line back. We told them NO.
AMFA's position was made clear to them on the first day of our new contract talks.
The forth line is ours and the company is still hiring mechanics to be ready to start it.

That is right, we have ADDED mechanics every year I have been here and are still hiring more today. I also have received a raise EVERY YEAR that I have been here.

Even after bringing on all the AirTran guys, we are still hiring.

Where are all these job losses you claim?

Maybe you should look at the TWU for the answer. They seem to only want to give up money at every chance, and now they are giving up money AND jobs this time.

Looks to me like the TWU only wants as many dues payers as they can get, no matter how low their wages get.

The facts are not on your side. What is your measurement? If it is 1999 then given the AMT to aircraft ratio then you should have added more jobs. If you had maintained the 4.0 to 1 that you had in 1999 (IBT) then you would 800 more AMTs making $40 plus and hour but you don't. That's a giveback since you did not maintain the job status quo you gave up jobs as you grew. That gave great cost savings to WN while you "fought" to add one more line of HC or approximately 100 AMTs for a net loss compared to the IBT contract of 700 high wage jobs. That's not winning my brother.

You were better off under the IBT representation if jobs and money were your goal. Under AMFA you got the pay and not the jobs.

 

[Kev3188]

The IAM represented the AMTs at NW?

Ramp, res, & customer service. I was pointing out the error in your claim that "every carrier" lost retiree medical in BK.

 

[Bob Owens]

It's in article 1. While a number is not locked in 65% of direct labor and materials will keep us in double digits of HC per aircraft. That is assuming all productivity stays the same. Now if the TWU got more efficient (deliver more work with less HC) you could, in theory, drive up individual pay rates and still keep the same work in-house. No such incentive at WN under the AMFA CBA. 2.75 AMT regardless of what is done internally and the ebb and flow of old and new aircraft maintenance demands.

To sum it up: "A number is not locked in", "Assuming", "if" and "could in theory".

Bottom line, no ratio of mechanics per airplane exists in our CBA and we make much much less. But as long as we work for very little, so little its not cost effective to outsource, we can keep the job, kind of like the terms Non-union people are offered.

Over the last 30 years how many mechanics has SWA laid off? With our language, both past and present how many thousands of mechanics have been laid off at AA over that same time frame, 5000, more? I believe the number at SWa is ZERO. Your point is meaningless, nobody cares about the ratio at SWA, what they care about is if they got hired what would they make.

 

[Bob Owens]

It's all about perspective Bob. From your occ seniority date this is a crappy contract and I agree, I would like to have all the pre-2001 benefits. A decision was made with the old presidents at that time and they chose a combination of jobs and pay. So, we could all be in the UA, US, NW, or DL boat where thousands of jobs were lost to outsourcing. From the perspective of the laid off ones the received no benefits of the deals you want. They are on the street looking for a job and any claim that they all got better jobs is BS. The BLS states that more than half people who lost their jobs in this industry never made even close to the same pay they made before they were laid off. But that doesn't matter to you Bob. As long as you got yours who cares to the overhaul AMTs. Market rate right Bob? Market rate in the U.S. for you and market rate in El Salvador or China for them.

Not true, the Presidents chose to keep the pay and benefits but the company said that they could not run the company that way and removed that option from the table.

Please show us a link to that BLS statement, when was it made in 2005? There are several posters on this site from NWA who claim that they now make more than they did at NWA and none that claim they make less. The fact is that none us at AA earn as much as those guys who were laid off from UA, UL, NW and DL were earning before they were laid off, the guys who remained now do, but ten years later we still don't. So maybe the half that you claim the BLS cited got jobs working for AA. You make such a claim and leave out the fact that those who didn't get laid off at AA don't make even close to the same pay we made before giving concessions.