Latest Rumors

[Borescope]

As for pricing, the problem is the Jet Blues and Air Trans of the world who flood the market with unrealistically cheap seats.

[post="196225"][/post]​

The problem is not that they "flood" the market with "Unrealistically cheap" seats. Their revenue may have dropped a lot (JBLU) yoy, but most of this was due to the 4 hurricanes which affected a majority of thier market. They can make money at the fares they charge for now. As their employee groups and fleets age they will have to raise more revenue (i.e. ticket prices) to cover the costs. Southwest did this by expansion. They brought in low cost employees (new hires) and new airplanes under warrantee to spread their cost out. Eventually their cost will go up as expansion slows down. UA on the other hand has furloughed the low cost employees, and even though this is only one part of the equation, the company can't make money at the fares they charge, but the LLC can. Many of the LLC's posted loses, but they only have to raise their fare a little to make up the difference. UA has a long way to go.

 

[gatemech]

What I mean by (they) in an earlier post is the government, judge, & airline management. I get upset that a company can just go cry to a judge and take wages & benefits back to what they were 20 years ago. Before to long there will be no reason to stay. I understand USAir mechanics are now below $20 hr. There is no reason to stay for those wages and the responsibility that goes with the job. I like what I do. When the wages get low enough I will leave. I'm not into crossword puzzles or reading the paper all through my shift. I do what I am assigned to do. I just won't do it for $20 hr and take the responsibility.

About a strike. Useless! Picketing. Useless! The public doesn't care what we make or what we want. They want to fly cheap and get there on time. I hear people complain that SW is a cattle car but they keep flying SW. The price is right.

A sickout would only work if all the airline employees in the country went along. Low-cost & legacy carriers. That is what I mean by that is all "they understand". You can't keep making the employees pay for management mistakes and the economy. If they have to downsize then do it. Raise fares. If all did people would still fly. Lay-off is part of the industry. Keep wages & benefits at levels employees can live with.

 

[767jetz]

The problem is not that they "flood" the market with "Unrealistically cheap" seats. Their revenue may have dropped a lot (JBLU) yoy, but most of this was due to the 4 hurricanes which affected a majority of thier market.

[post="196253"][/post]​

I agree with most of what you said, except the part about the hurricanes. Sure it hurt them, but the rising costs of aviation are hurting much more. They already had downward pressure on earnings before the hurricane season.

UA has a way to go. People should start to accept that more change (ie: less money in our pocket) is going to happen. But as legacy costs come down, and LCC costs creep up, they will eventually meet. Then no one will be able to blame labor for the continued losses.

I stand by my initial premise, which is prices must rise at the same rate as fuel and other expenses outside our control rise. If you don't pass these costs on to the consumer, eventually you are basically giving the product away for free.


As a side not to those who say that Southwest still makes a profit, remember that in many cases they now have industry leading pay. The biggest feather in their cap is that their fuel is hedged at a significantly lower price than all the competition. If they paid the same for fuel as us, they'd be losing money as well. (Or conversely, if we had access to fuel at their prices, UA would be also be ecking out a small profit.)

 

[767jetz]

In the mean time all management can think of is attacking yours and mine hourly wage this is an issue they have had for years mgmt is taking advantage of a bag situation and stompind on our throats

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

[post="196238"][/post]​

I don't want to start a debate about USAir's situation on this forum, but things are certainly different there.

I agree that US management is taking advantage of their employees and the company's situation. They have squandered every opportunity to foster team work. At this point, everyone at US is trying to grab as much for themselves before the end. Especially management. IMO they are engaged in union busting.

I don't see UA management doing the same. There is no doubt that Tilton will ask for more. IMO he will ask for what the company needs, and no more. He will also negotiate in good faith with the unions to come up with the givebacks. He will also offer future incentives based on profit potential to stakeholders. (ie: the employees who sacrifice.) He knows that it is the employees who have kept us in the game this long, and he's not about to blow it by starting a civil war.

That doesn't mean there will not be maneuvering and posturing on both sides. I'm not saying he will go easy on us. I'm only saying that if the employees are part of the process it will be easier for us to swallow a pill, rather than having it shoved down our throats.

 

[UseYourHead]

I agree with ya 767jetz,

What a mess we are in the mist of...not the first time, nor will it be the last. We should all do what we can to get through this.

Best of luck to you all at UAL!

I have to agree with you here. Management in not always the enemy. The biggest thing hurting us is oil prices and pricing weakness.

Oil will only go down when this country has a better energy policy in place, and the mess in the Middle East gets cleaned up a bit.

As for pricing, the problem is the Jet Blues and Air Trans of the world who flood the market with unrealistically cheap seats. Sure, they got away with it for a while since they had junior labor who would accept lower pay. Eventually the cost of doing business will climb and catch up to even the lowest cost airlines. Jet Blue's earnings have eroded by 70%. What then? Will people claim that even their employees are paid too much? Will someone else enter the market and undercut the LCC's? Will we have Ultra-LCC's?

As for talk about work slow downs, I understand this tactic as a weapon of last resort. But at companies like UAL, it is directing your frustrations at the wrong target. Right now the focus should be weathering the storm and living to fight another day. The one thing keepiong us alive when some people already wrote our obituary is the confidence of our customers and creditors that we will do the right things and eventually make a strong come back. And we've accomplished that by doing the best job we can, day in and out, and not letting the difficulties of our chosen profession disrupt our conviction to make it through.

[post="196225"][/post]​

 

[gatemech]

I don't want to start a debate about USAir's situation on this forum, but things are certainly different there.

I agree that US management is taking advantage of their employees and the company's situation. They have squandered every opportunity to foster team work. At this point, everyone at US is trying to grab as much for themselves before the end. Especially management. IMO they are engaged in union busting.

I don't see UA management doing the same. There is no doubt that Tilton will ask for more. IMO he will ask for what the company needs, and no more. He will also negotiate in good faith with the unions to come up with the givebacks. He will also offer future incentives based on profit potential to stakeholders. (ie: the employees who sacrifice.) He knows that it is the employees who have kept us in the game this long, and he's not about to blow it by starting a civil war.

That doesn't mean there will not be maneuvering and posturing on both sides. I'm not saying he will go easy on us. I'm only saying that if the employees are part of the process it will be easier for us to swallow a pill, rather than having it shoved down our throats.

[post="196303"][/post]​

I think Tilton will ask for the sky. I don't think there will be any givebacks if oil drops of the economy changes. What they ask for we will be stuck with through the bad times and most likely into another bad swing at the time contracts open for negotiation.

I don't know what the pilots & F/A's get for the success sharing but I for one would give my couple hundred bucks back to leave my wages alone. Also retro is over. That was a big quarterly cost to UA.

 

[mrfish3726]

With the comments that UniTED management is putting in the papers, I don't see them having a whole lot of time to work out concession packages. I see things happening at UniTED the same that they have at USAIR. And you can almost bet, whatever they wind up with at USAIR is going to be a good starting point for UniTED managment. :huh:

I think that UAL, like USAIR will call in the unions tell them what they want and that's that or face the 1113 and take your chances. It didn't happen any different at USAIR. Even with a concession vote the pilots there STILL wound up giving back 300M a year (till 2011 ouch) with no job security, no fleet size plan, not much of anything. Bottom line, give what we want or WE'LL all be out looking for a job!!! Remember, folks at USAIR (MOST) are back at their 1980's pay level.

If you think Tilton, Brace, or McDonald are going to feel the employees pain you might be in for a surprise. Just ask the hundreds that have already been furloughed this past few months, they will tell you how bad UniTED management felt about them. The only thing they are concerned about is the survival of UAL in some form and the mounting debt that the creditors want payed.

 

[Borescope]

I agree with most of what you said, except the part about the hurricanes. Sure it hurt them, but the rising costs of aviation are hurting much more. They already had downward pressure on earnings before the hurricane season.

UA has a way to go. People should start to accept that more change (ie: less money in our pocket) is going to happen. But as legacy costs come down, and LCC costs creep up, they will eventually meet. Then no one will be able to blame labor for the continued losses.

I stand by my initial premise, which is prices must rise at the same rate as fuel and other expenses outside our control rise. If you don't pass these costs on to the consumer, eventually you are basically giving the product away for free.
As a side not to those who say that Southwest still makes a profit, remember that in many cases they now have industry leading pay. The biggest feather in their cap is that their fuel is hedged at a significantly lower price than all the competition. If they paid the same for fuel as us, they'd be losing money as well. (Or conversely, if we had access to fuel at their prices, UA would be also be ecking out a small profit.)

[post="196297"][/post]​

767,
Maybe I didn't word it right, but you said it correctly. I agree with what you said.

 

[Bear96]

I don't want to start a debate about USAir's situation on this forum, but things are certainly different there.

I agree that US management is taking advantage of their employees and the company's situation. They have squandered every opportunity to foster team work. At this point, everyone at US is trying to grab as much for themselves before the end. Especially management. IMO they are engaged in union busting.

I don't see UA management doing the same. There is no doubt that Tilton will ask for more. IMO he will ask for what the company needs, and no more. He will also negotiate in good faith with the unions to come up with the givebacks.

[post="196303"][/post]​

I wish I could be that optimistic.

I think every airline exec is watching the land grab that is going on at U with baited breath and taking careful notes. They will be doing the same thing over here in short order.

Some voice in the back of their brains may be whispering what you are and thinking that might not be the wisest thing to do, but greed will get the better of them and ultimately they will get what they can by any means necessary. They won't be able to help themselves-- especially if the UA pilots roll over as eagerly as the U ones did (which appears like it will be the case, based on some recent pilot postings here showing total pilot faith in management). It'll be like taking candy from a baby. Who could blame them for taking advantage of that, when the rewards for doing so will be so great for them?

Plus if we bust our loan covenants, which UA is now saying will probably happen this winter, you will have the DIP lenders calling the shots more than they are now and demanding that labor be squeezed to the max.

 

[firstamendment]

My personal ethics would never allow me to be involved in and/or a party to a ‘sick-out’ and/or a ‘work-slowdown’. As long as I come to work everyday and ‘Uncle U’ pays me what I accept to take, then I will give them what I am paid to do. This is a ‘job’ and no one ‘owes’ you and/or I anything to sit on our butts and whine about how much the company is taking advantage of you and/or I.

From my experience, most of the people whom adhere to this mantra are inherently dead weight from the outset and bit_h the most about being ‘forced’ to go to work while in the middle of a perplexing crossword puzzle!!!

JMHO,

:down: UT

[post="196129"][/post]​

Let's see if you feel the same if UAL management goes to the courts and makes you guys take a 21% cut while managemnt only gets cut 1% after a 4% raise. Oh, I know, don't like it, leave...blah, blah, blah..co. owes you nothing. That's always the mantra and things in coorperate America only gets worse and worse. I agree with the idea that ALL the airlines should sick out one day out of protest. I will promise you the public would get the picture, Oh I can here it..we will fire all of you. Yeah, right. Most people just don't have the guts. It's better to #### on the internet behind the cover of a screen name.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Let's see if you feel the same if UAL management goes to the courts and makes you guys take a 21% cut while managemnt only gets cut 1% after a 4% raise. Oh, I know, don't like it, leave...blah, blah, blah..co. owes you nothing. That's always the mantra and things in coorperate America only gets worse and worse. I agree with the idea that ALL the airlines should sick out one day out of protest. I will promise you the public would get the picture, Oh I can here it..we will fire all of you. Yeah, right. Most people just don't have the guts. It's better to #### on the internet behind the cover of a screen name.

[post="196509"][/post]​

firstamendment,

I understand you being upset but don’t flame me for stating my ‘own’ position. I’m a terrible liar and never felt comfortable sitting on my hands trying to ‘look’ busy. You don’t have to live up to my morals and work ethic and I should not have to lower mine to be ‘part of the crowd’.

You will not find in any of my posts the ‘if you don’t like it leave’ statement and/or implication to that effect.

Now if there were a national wildcat strike, I’ll help make the picket signs and be right there beside you. However, if you think this would gain ‘public support’, I think you will be very surprised and disgusted as to the extent that the ‘public’ doesn’t give a rats a$$ about our (or anyone else’s) situation. They just want to fly from SFO to IAD round trip for $99 and if means paying us minimum wage with no bennies, so be it. Walking the picket line for EAL gave me a real life experience of how the public perceives us as overpaid hired help.

But I won’t ‘call in sick’ just to cover my A$$.

If I’m still here at the ‘Lazy U’ after our next round of concessions (much less forth round), then it is my own stupid fault for not making a stand to begin with. Think of that as you vote on your forth round of concessions and start preparing for Mister #5 that will be needed to exit chapter 11.

I do wish you all the best at USAir!!

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[rotate]

Sickouts and strikes at this point are the equivilent of murder / suicide. Dishonorable and ineffective.

Find another way to make a living. Whether you accept a pay cut or participate in sickouts and strikes the result will be essentially the same. Your standard of living will fall.

Winston Churchill offered the British people "blood, sweat, tears and toil" as they stood alone against the Nazis. That was the truth for them and that is our truth.

They prevailed and so can we.

 

[JungleClone]

I love it! Absolutely love it. Doesn't take much for all the lunchroom lawyers to start throwing out their "mass sick out" threats. Your tough talk rings awfully hollow when it's being made against the wrong enemy. EVERY senior leadership team you could think of to run United would reach the same conclusion: more labor cost cuts. That's because when oil skyrockets in price and it represents your second largest expense, where do you think a company is going to turn to offset that? How about it's single largest expense: labor. Increasing revenue is a difficult thing to do at this time of year. There's just WAY too many airlines flying WAY too many seats. Nobody likes the idea of more labor cuts, least of all me, but there's no other choice. United is FINALLY faced with making the truly tough changes that are needed to survive. What this industry really needs to get back on its feet is for 2-3 major airlines to fold and for that capacity to fold along with it. But the geniuses that run this industry all say that there is too much capacity, yet they all trip over each other throwing more flights and seats out on almost a daily basis. Sure, United is shifting capacity from domestic to international. And as predictable as the sunrise, other airlines are following suit. There's only so much capacity you can dump overseas until you start eroding those yields also. Anyone who thinks things have been ugly the last 4 years needs to prepare for the fact that none of us has even seen ugly yet. Things are gonna get a whole lot worse before they get better. My advice is that if you're tired of the cuts and don't want to take it anymore, start looking for a better situation for yourself. Otherwise, accept the fact that it's the only way to ensure United a chance at survival. Drawing a line in the sand and distributing your "full pay till the last day" bumper stickers isn't going to get you anywhere. The company holds all the cards. Your only alternative would be to shut United down for good. Talk about a hollow victory!

 

[UAL_TECH]

Sickouts and strikes at this point are the equivilent of murder / suicide. Dishonorable and ineffective.

Find another way to make a living. Whether you accept a pay cut or participate in sickouts and strikes the result will be essentially the same. Your standard of living will fall.

Winston Churchill offered the British people "blood, sweat, tears and toil" as they stood alone against the Nazis. That was the truth for them and that is our truth.

They prevailed and so can we.

[post="196669"][/post]​

I might agree with the sickouts and work slowdowns (depending on the circumstances), but strikes are far from dishonorable and hardly ineffective given the circumstance, particularly in this situation.

You can play your semantic mind games all you want but you will have to paint us a picture of where you are going with this.
For a good picture of fascism, take a look at the government imposed pay cuts at USAir ‘For the good of commerce’!!!



If you want to speak ‘truths’, I got truths for you!!!

So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how long have you been a Nazi?


View attachment 2083 UT

 

[UAL_TECH]

I love it! Absolutely love it. Doesn't take much for all the lunchroom lawyers to start throwing out their "mass sick out" threats. Your tough talk rings awfully hollow when it's being made against the wrong enemy. EVERY senior leadership team you could think of to run United would reach the same conclusion: more labor cost cuts. That's because when oil skyrockets in price and it represents your second largest expense, where do you think a company is going to turn to offset that? How about it's single largest expense: labor. Increasing revenue is a difficult thing to do at this time of year. There's just WAY too many airlines flying WAY too many seats. Nobody likes the idea of more labor cuts, least of all me, but there's no other choice. United is FINALLY faced with making the truly tough changes that are needed to survive. What this industry really needs to get back on its feet is for 2-3 major airlines to fold and for that capacity to fold along with it. But the geniuses that run this industry all say that there is too much capacity, yet they all trip over each other throwing more flights and seats out on almost a daily basis. Sure, United is shifting capacity from domestic to international. And as predictable as the sunrise, other airlines are following suit. There's only so much capacity you can dump overseas until you start eroding those yields also. Anyone who thinks things have been ugly the last 4 years needs to prepare for the fact that none of us has even seen ugly yet. Things are gonna get a whole lot worse before they get better. My advice is that if you're tired of the cuts and don't want to take it anymore, start looking for a better situation for yourself. Otherwise, accept the fact that it's the only way to ensure United a chance at survival. Drawing a line in the sand and distributing your "full pay till the last day" bumper stickers isn't going to get you anywhere. The company holds all the cards. Your only alternative would be to shut United down for good. Talk about a hollow victory!

[post="196691"][/post]​

How about making this ‘Management Team’ figure out how to raise the price of tickets to reflect the cost of oil??? It’s not my fault that oil is $55 a barrel, and I understand that it is not UAL managements ‘fault’ also (at least on this issue). But I will not ‘willingly’ subsidize the cost of oil with capitulation of pay and benefits for cheap tickets!!!

I’ve played this ‘suckers’ game before (ESOP) and you and your ‘analysts’ can spin it in as many directions to deflect blame and realities as much as you want.

It is ‘far’ easier for management to come to me to subsidize the flying public (who doesn’t give a rats a$$ about me) for cheap tickets than it is for them to figure out how to make a profit.

Then when they do make a profit claim that ‘wish we could help you little fu@)#$ out, but we can’t due to our contract language.

I’ve lost my pension to the PBGC, already took one pay cut, and increased my pension medical expenses.
WTF do you want? All of it?

:down: UT