Love those hybrids

[delldude]

I think you're grasping at threads here, Dell.

 

[Veritas]

I think you're grasping at threads here, Dell.

So what else is new? 🙄

Production costs versus operating costs

Using another puzzling assumption, the CNW report seems to assign the majority of a vehicle's lifetime energy input to its design, development and production. We turn again to the Pacific Institute, which cites five independent studies showing that the operation of a vehicle is responsible for at least 73 percent and as much as 90 percent of its lifetime energy cost.

One of these studies, from the Argonne National Laboratory, is quoted as concluding that "around 74% of all hybrid and internal combustion vehicle energy use comes from the operation of the vehicle."

Pacific Institute quotes the MIT study "On the Road in 2020" as saying that a comprehensive life-cycle energy analysis found that "80% to 90% of all energy was used in the operation stage, 7% to 12% in the materials production stage, and the remainder in vehicle assembly, distribution, and disposal."

So, with lifetime energy cost divided by lifetime miles, as in the CNW report, Prius's per-mile energy input would be substantially better than is shown in that report, and better than that of a Hummer.

HEARD THE ONE ABOUT THE HUMMER?

A brief history of the Myth:
1. CNW puts out its Dust-to-Dust study, with the intial Hummer better than Prius claim.
2. The Mail on Sunday publishes a piece of alleging the Prius is responsible for pollution at Sudbury.
3. Chris Demorro writes an opinion piece for the CCSU Recorder adding EPA mileage misrepresentations (i.e., comparisions using revised Prius mileage and unrevised Aveo mileage), to the Sudbury and Dust-to-Dust allegations.
4. Demorro's piece is reposted all over the web; Rush Limbaugh reads it on-air.
5. James L. Martin rewrites Demorro, gets published as commentary in the Philadelphia Inquirer.
6. CNW posts the Philadelphia Inquirer column on its website.

All that said, Toyota acknowledges that manufacturing a Prius is more energy intensive than making a nonhybrid car. Argonne's scientists estimate that producing a pound's worth of a hybrid car requires 38,650 British thermal units, 23 percent more than that required to build a pound of a traditional car. But the Prius' fuel savings can make up that difference rather quickly, at least compared with the average car, which gets a measly 22.9 miles per gallon. (The EPA estimates the Prius' fuel efficiency at 48 miles per gallon in the city, 45 on the highway—estimates that Prius owners typically claim are far too low.)

Slate - Tank vs. Hybrid

 

[delldude]

A brief history of the Myth:
1. CNW puts out its Dust-to-Dust study, with the intial Hummer better than Prius claim.
2. The Mail on Sunday publishes a piece of alleging the Prius is responsible for pollution at Sudbury.
3. Chris Demorro writes an opinion piece for the CCSU Recorder adding EPA mileage misrepresentations (i.e., comparisions using revised Prius mileage and unrevised Aveo mileage), to the Sudbury and Dust-to-Dust allegations.
4. Demorro's piece is reposted all over the web; Rush Limbaugh reads it on-air.
5. James L. Martin rewrites Demorro, gets published as commentary in the Philadelphia Inquirer.
6. CNW posts the Philadelphia Inquirer column on its website.
7.Delldude posts on USAvi....

 

[delldude]

Say what you wish but the Prius gets its nickel from the largest polluter in Ontario.So how green is my valley?

Not to mention continued damage to the environment in Europe and China.

 

[delldude]

😱

 

[eolesen]

I love my hybrid Jeep Patriot --- it drives equally fine off-road and on the highway!

 

[Gilding the Lily]

I love my hybrid Jeep Patriot --- it drives equally fine off-road and on the highway!

Unfortunately, Chrysler doesn't appear to love the Patriot as much as you do. Rumors flying around are suggesting that Chrysler will be dropping even more models, including the Patriot.

I didn't know that Jeep made Hybrids (except concept vehicles). Is it a Limited Edition?

 

[local 12 proud]

Gasoline prices set to top $4.00 a gallon at the pump by summer, and some states like California are all ready feeling the pain.

I love my Ford Ranger, four-banger! 😛

Story here

 

[Veritas]

Not to mention continued damage to the environment in Europe and China.

I gather that you do not buy any products have chromed metal surfaces. There is probably a lot more nickel in all the chrome on the Hummer than the Prius’ battery.

Besides most of the damage to the area surrounding the mine and the smelter occurred prior to the 1970s (well, before the Prius was even conceived). Most of the damage has been reclaimed by now and the ongoing operation is green.

THE RECLAMATION OF SUDBURY: THE GREENING OF A MOONSCAPE

Coinciding with the start of these massive reclamation efforts, the summer of 1978 found many student summer workers unemployed due to cutbacks in the local mining industry. With funds from local and regional governments, 175 students under the auspices of the Young Canada Works Programme, were hired that summer to carry out much of the labor intensive work described above. For at least 10 years after that, student workers were hired to carry out those and other reclamation tasks during the summer. In addition, in the early 1980s as local industry continued their cutbacks, the municipality of Sudbury began hiring unemployed individuals and welfare recipients to undertake similar tasks. During this period there were many programs giving wage supplements to individual with unemployment insurance and further helping those without. These programs had the effect of strengthening the local economy, the individual, the reclamation effort and decreasing the growing welfare cases. The net result was that 3,600 acres of barren land was reclaimed, 230,000 trees were planted and 1,740 short term jobs were created (Lautenbach, 1986). This would bring the total area covered by reclamation projects to about 10 square miles as of 1986 (Lautenbach, 1986).

Were the reclamation efforts in the Sudbury region a success? Would a strict scientific assessment of success be narrow in scope given the history of this project and the amount of community involvement? As mentioned above, the goals of this reclamation effort are complex, and so must be the assessment of success. One point that may help clarify this situation is that, despite what a few scientists may think, this was primarily not an ecological restoration. First and foremost, this was a social restoration. The goal for most people was "an aesthetic one" (Bradshaw, 1995). The environment in the Sudbury region is so intertwined with the social, economic, and physical health of the community that this seemed to be the major driving factor in the restoration efforts.

On this level, the restoration of Sudbury seems to be quite a success. The town of Sudbury, on its web site, claims to have a new "greener" image. Thousands of jobs were created to help ease the economic burden of mining cutbacks. Pictures of much greener landscapes fill the literature. I do not have information on new industry attracted to the area, but I would not be surprised if it has increased since the greening of the landscape. In some ways the true test of success is in the opinions of the Sudburians, "Does the landscape look better?" or "Is this a better place to live?". From what I have read I believe that most Sudburians would answer "Yes" to both of these questions. They also realize that they have not reached an end point: "...as Sudbury residents [we know] we still have a difficult job ahead of us...." (Gunn et al. 1995).

The scientific assessment of success of this restoration is also a vital element in the overall appraisal of the project. As claims to success, scientists list species of naturally recolonized native plants on their reclamation areas. The percentage of grasses has, over time, tended to decrease and the percentage of woody species has tended to increase (Lautenbach, 1986). The number of insects, birds and some mammals has increased in some reclaimed areas (ibid.). There have been specific programs to restore high profile animal species like the peregrine falcon and the aurora trout. All of these facts point to small successes of the restoration. Most of these successes are mild indicators of increasing structure and function of the ecosystems.

 

[KCFlyer]

KC good that you can save a few bucks on gas, but it still doesn't change the fact of the environmental damage that the production cost. I get so tired of people who jump on this 'Green' kick when they polute just like everyone on this planet. We could do completely away with Industry in this country and it will not change a GD thing. We are 300 million out of 6.5 billion who are trashing this globe and depleting its resources and the outcome is pretty certain!

I didn't jump on a "green kick" by buying a Prius...I jumped on a "let's save some oil for future generations" kick. Yes, other countries (China and India) have a tremendous amount of growth in demand for the earth's resources. But - while their demand is still for cars that get relatively decent mileage...and the Europeans demand of vehicles with fuel efficency...there sits America for 20 years driving 13 mpg SUV's...and suffering "penis envy" when their neighbor brought home a BIGGER SUV, so they had to go out and buy an even bigger one for themselves. Now, one side effect of me driving a car where the engine only runs half the time means that I'm also polluting a bit less. Don't care about ozone or warming...just pollution. Yet every day driving to work, I see a line of no fewer than 8 SUV's idling away in the Starbucks drive thru - polluting my air.

That's what really gets me...when gas was $2 a gallon, Americans had no problem. Today they whine and moan about $3.50 gallon gas...while they are burning it, waiting in line to pay $4 for a cup of coffee.

 

[local 12 proud]

I didn't jump on a "green kick" by buying a Prius...I jumped on a "let's save some oil for future generations" kick. Yes, other countries (China and India) have a tremendous amount of growth in demand for the earth's resources. But - while their demand is still for cars that get relatively decent mileage...and the Europeans demand of vehicles with fuel efficency...there sits America for 20 years driving 13 mpg SUV's...and suffering "penis envy" when their neighbor brought home a BIGGER SUV, so they had to go out and buy an even bigger one for themselves. Now, one side effect of me driving a car where the engine only runs half the time means that I'm also polluting a bit less. Don't care about ozone or warming...just pollution. Yet every day driving to work, I see a line of no fewer than 8 SUV's idling away in the Starbucks drive thru - polluting my air.

KC I wasn't deriding you, in fact I said if your able to save a few bucks thats a good thing.

Guess Im not part of the "Penis Envy" crowd, seeing how I drive a ten year old four banger. :blush:

That's what really gets me...when gas was $2 a gallon, Americans had no problem. Today they whine and moan about $3.50 gallon gas...while they are burning it, waiting in line to pay $4 for a cup of coffee.

Im With ya on that brother!!!

 

[delldude]

I gather that you do not buy any products have chromed metal surfaces. There is probably a lot more nickel in all the chrome on the Hummer than the Prius’ battery.

Besides most of the damage to the area surrounding the mine and the smelter occurred prior to the 1970s (well, before the Prius was even conceived). Most of the damage has been reclaimed by now and the ongoing operation is green.

Yeah,yeah,yeah.......

Thats why INCO was listed in 2003 as the largest polluter in Ontario. :unsure:

Find it big 'V'.......

 

[UAL_TECH]

Guess Im not part of the "Penis Envy" crowd, seeing how I drive a ten year old four banger. :blush:

No Comment...

 

[local 12 proud]

No Comment...

Thats so not you UT... 😀

take care,
Local 12

 

[Veritas]

Yeah,yeah,yeah.......

Thats why INCO was listed in 2003 as the largest polluter in Ontario. :unsure:

Find it big 'V'.......

You just can't help yourself and stop spreading misinformation, can you?

Toyota factory
Last updated at 09:34am on 9th May 2007

It has come to our attention that a story originally published in the Mail on Sunday has apparently been misinterpreted by some of our readers.

In order to prevent further misinterpretation, we have removed the article from our website. The following letter was published in the Mail on Sunday on May 13, 2007:

Your article about the Inco nickel factory at Sudbury, Canada, wrongly implied that poisonous fumes from the factory had left the area looking like a lunar landscape because so many plants and trees had died. You also sought to blame Toyota because the nickel is used, among countless other purposes, for making the Prius hybrid car batteries.

In fact any damage occurred more than thirty years ago, long before the Prius was made. Since then, Inco has reduced sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent and has helped to plant more than 11 million trees.

The company has won praise from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and environmental groups. Sudbury has won several conservation awards and is a centre for eco-tourism.

Dave Rado

Colchester

The Mail on Sunday

Like any protagonist in a good plot, Sudbury has had its fair share of hardships. Reliance on a volatile industry meant that Sudbury wasn't always a stable city. And although the city usually benefited financially by the mineral deposits, after nearly a century of mining, Sudbury's environmental health was gasping. By the early 1970s, an estimated 65 km (40 mi) of land was sterile and another 225 km (140 mi) was estimated to be semi-infertile. During this time Sudbury was also gaining the reputation as one of the largest producers of acid rain causing chemicals in North America - and with good reason, Sudbury's pollution levels far exceeded that of many highly populated cities. It seems the only company that benefited from the harsh environmental conditions was the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) - the space program used Sudbury's barren landscape as rehearsal space for lunar surface landings.

Currently, Sudbury is crafting a new reputation. In 1978, the Vegetation Enhancement Technical Advisory Committee (VETAC) took on the responsibility of implementing the Sudbury Land Reclamation Project. Large amounts of lime was introduced to the acid rich soil and acted as a base, neutralizing the earth and promoting growth. The experimental project has been deemed a success as millions of trees have been reintroduced into the terrain consequently helping to improve air quality levels by over 90 per cent. The slow return of area wildlife has also been an encouraging factor of the land reclamation project and has provided real evidence of Sudbury's slow-and-steady approach to environmental recovery.

Sudbury's clean-up efforts have breathed new life into the city's lagging tourism industry as well. Positioned in Ontario's rugged north, this thriving urban centre acts as a great jumping off point for a number of recreational activities while still providing the comforts of everyday life. Kayaking, canoeing, hiking and more are staple activities that account for a large portion of the city's tourism appeal. Over 300 lakes are located within the boundaries of Greater Sudbury, including the city's crown jewels, Ramsey and Wanapitei lakes, the two largest city-contained lakes in North America.

Sudbury: More than Mining

The mining companies adopted a two-track approach: reduce the sulfur emissions, and plant trees. In 1972, Inco completed the construction of a giant smokestack, which drastically reduced the sulfur dioxide emissions, and planted the millionth tree. By 1994, further improvements in the process technology reduced the sulfur dioxide emissions to 10%. Falconbridge planted 600,000 trees on its properties in the Sudbury area. It recycles half the water it uses, and treats wastewater to control acidity, heavy metal content and suspended solids. Using the treated water, Falconbridge could ameliorate an acidic wasteland into a wetland, which has now become a wildlife sanctuary.

Thus, more than 3,000 ha in the Sudbury area has been restored. An additional two million trees were planted under a job-creation programme funded by the Sudbury regional municipality, government and industry. The environmental transformation that has been accomplished in Sudbury attracted international attention - in the Rio Summit in 1992, Sudbury received the United Nations Local Government Honors Award (source: Metal Mining and the Environment – a brochure of the American Geological Institute, 1999).

Two lessons could be learnt from the Sudbury case: (1) it is indeed possible to reverse and ameliorate even the most intensive and extensive environmental degradation, (2) biological methods, such as vegetation, are not only cost effective but are also environmentally and aesthetically appropriate.

Mineral Resources Management and the Environment By U. Aswathanarayana; page 234