Maintenance backing up?

[FWAAA]

Continental already earns around $10k a year more than we do.

Time for some fact-checking.

According to www.aanegotiations.com, in January, 2009, CO mechanics top out at $33.52/hr while AA tops out at $33.28/hr (both include all license pay, shift premiums and other add-ons). Given that 24 cent an hour additional pay at CO, I'm skeptical of the accuracy of your number of $10k more per year at CO. A quarter an hour works out to about $500 more/yr, not $10k. Their better vacation and holiday pay doesn't add up to an extra $9,500/yr. Not a chance.

 

[The Goose]

Time for some fact-checking.

According to www.aanegotiations.com, in January, 2009, CO mechanics top out at $33.52/hr while AA tops out at $33.28/hr (both include all license pay, shift premiums and other add-ons). Given that 24 cent an hour additional pay at CO, I'm skeptical of the accuracy of your number of $10k more per year at CO. A quarter an hour works out to about $500 more/yr, not $10k. Their better vacation and holiday pay doesn't add up to an extra $9,500/yr. Not a chance.

Perhaps you're forgetting about the sick time given up also - that 12 days per year wasn't exactly free of charge for the company ...

 

[Bob Owens]

Perhaps you're forgetting about the sick time given up also - that 12 days per year wasn't exactly free of charge for the company ...

He's forgetting a lot of things such as Double time, a profit sharing plan that on average paid their mechanics $3000 an year etc etc. The extra week of vacation that they get is worth $1340/year. So just the profit sharing, the vacation and the 24 cents brings you to $4840.

If you were to compare the w-2 between AA and CAL from your average mechanic from EWR you would find that the difference was probably closer to $20k/year. A large part of that difference would be OT because Continental runs leaner, their guys dont have to go to a second job because they pick up OT which keeps them happier and more productive. Several of the guys at Continental EWR left AA and havent looked back. I'm not saying that they are satisfied with what they are getting, just they are much better off than their counterparts across the ramp at AA.

AA767JET
This so true, plus if you factor in all the school closing's for graduating AMT's,
American better keep what Amt's they have now and for a long time to come.
There is going to be no experience in the field in the next three years if this rate keeps up....
And if AA is smart they will keep us all working and have all that experience to check mate the MRO business yet to come...

The figure I saw was half the schools closed over the last five years.

I dont think AA is really that serious about MRO work. Its just another negotiating ploy. Sure they will fill in open spots when it suits them but thats pretty much it, they will have enough of a challenge getting their own stuff out.

 

[The Goose]

He's forgetting a lot of things such as Double time, a profit sharing plan that on average paid their mechanics $3000 an year etc etc. The extra week of vacation that they get is worth $1340/year. So just the profit sharing, the vacation and the 24 cents brings you to $4840.

If you were to compare the w-2 between AA and CAL from your average mechanic from EWR you would find that the difference was probably closer to $20k/year. A large part of that difference would be OT because Continental runs leaner, their guys dont have to go to a second job because they pick up OT which keeps them happier and more productive. Several of the guys at Continental EWR left AA and havent looked back. I'm not saying that they are satisfied with what they are getting, just they are much better off than their counterparts across the ramp at AA.



The figure I saw was half the schools closed over the last five years.

I dont think AA is really that serious about MRO work. Its just another negotiating ploy. Sure they will fill in open spots when it suits them but thats pretty much it, they will have enough of a challenge getting their own stuff out.

FWAAA seems to "forget" many things re: our jobs, but that's not surprising considering he does not nor has ever worked for AA in any capacity - at least that's his claim. More logical would be that the "information" is provided purely for narcissistic purposes, as would seem to be the motivation for a couple other posters that follow this board.

Re: the MRO work - It's apparent AA doesn't want this even though the City of Tulsa had a new tent built for AA and named it after Romano. A Grand Opening was held - admission was $5/person. In the words of a friend, "I wouldn't give $5 to watch a piss-ant eat a bale of hay, let alone tour a tent".

At TULE recently, it's told a meeting was held because a workgroup was operating too efficiently - can't have that.

Let's worry only about that which is immaterial to our needs.

 

[FWAAA]

He's forgetting a lot of things such as Double time, a profit sharing plan that on average paid their mechanics $3000 an year etc etc. The extra week of vacation that they get is worth $1340/year. So just the profit sharing, the vacation and the 24 cents brings you to $4840.

I forgot nothing, Bob, except for your penchant for playing fast and loose with the facts.

An extra week of vacation doesn't equate to more cash earnings unless, of course, you work thru your vacation and get an extra week's worth of pay. Does AA pay you for vacation not taken or are you simply forced to take the time off? Do CO mechanics have the option of working instead of time off? CO mechanics get an extra week off; they don't make an extra $1,340/yr by taking that week off.

12 days of sick time? That doesn't affect W-2 earnings - unless you're sick an awful lot and end up not being paid for it. Does that happen every year? If so, that's one sickly individual. Most adults aren't sick one day per month on average.

Double time? Is that the Holiday pay bonanza that AA canceled in the 2003 concessions? That doesn't add up to $9,500 extra per CO mechanic.

Profit sharing plan? Yes, Bob, in 2007 and 2008, CO paid out $269 million in profit sharing for 2006 and 2007, for an average of about $3,000 per employee. How much profit sharing did CO pay out in 2009? Zero. Any idea what next February's payout will be? In years past, CO mechanics got an extra $3,000 each, but they didn't get anything this year and unless CO has a phenomenal fourth quarter, they won't get it next winter either. So on "average," the CO employees got $1,500 extra (if we limit the time frame to 2007-10).

Again, you latch onto bonus payments made to other airline employees while ignoring the extra compensation AA paid you from the piddly stock options distributed in May, 2003. Sure, at maximum value, the options were worth at most $12,000 or so, but that compares favorably to CO's profit sharing payout.

If you were to compare the w-2 between AA and CAL from your average mechanic from EWR you would find that the difference was probably closer to $20k/year. A large part of that difference would be OT because Continental runs leaner, their guys dont have to go to a second job because they pick up OT which keeps them happier and more productive. Several of the guys at Continental EWR left AA and havent looked back. I'm not saying that they are satisfied with what they are getting, just they are much better off than their counterparts across the ramp at AA.

I'm certain there are CO mechanics with much larger W-2 income than AA mechanics, not only at EWR, but probably all over their system. And I'm certain that there are AA mechanics with larger W-2 income than the typical CO mechanic.

Previously, AA mechanics have posted that the only way they've been able to keep up was thru accepting all overtime offered - so no doubt there are AA mechanics at LGA and JFK whose W-2s are much larger than the typical CO mechanic. But again, CO got no profit sharing earlier this year for 2008 (no profits) nor will they get anything early next year for 2009 (again, no profits). Unless they're able to work instead of taking that extra week of vacation and get paid for it at the end of the year, their W-2 won't reflect any extra amount for the week of vacation.

You said that CO mechanics were already $10k ahead of you. And that's simply a fabrication.

 

[Bob Owens]

I forgot nothing, Bob, except for your penchant for playing fast and loose with the facts.

An extra week of vacation doesn't equate to more cash earnings unless, of course, you work thru your vacation and get an extra week's worth of pay.

It equates to compensation, otherwise known as pay, if you want to play lawyer here go right ahead but I can tell you that its a fact that the company most certainly puts a dollar figure on Vacation. Are you saying that vacation should not be figured in as compensation or are you just fustrated and grasping at technicalities?

And the answer is yes I have spent several of my "vacation" weeks working, not for AA but for others. Call it"opportunity cost" if you would like.

CO mechanics get an extra week off; they don't make an extra $1,340/yr by taking that week off.

No but if I want to have the same amount of vacation as a similiarly situated mechanic at Continental I have to buy it (Flex Vacation) That lowers my yearly income by one week of pay. So I'm sticking with the $1340 for vacation. $9500 -1340=$8160

12 days of sick time? That doesn't affect W-2 earnings - unless you're sick an awful lot and end up not being paid for it. Does that happen every year? If so, that's one sickly individual. Most adults aren't sick one day per month on average.

Once again, sick time accrual has a dollar figure attached to it, obviuosly you've never been involved in negotiations.Tthe extra sick days in the bank (I think they get 10 vs our 5, not sure on that)-$8160-1340=$6820

Double time? Is that the Holiday pay bonanza that AA canceled in the 2003 concessions? That doesn't add up to $9,500 extra per CO mechanic.

Holiday pay bonanza? How do you figure that being paid for your hours worked plus having a paid day off like most people get is a Bonanza? Ebinezer Scrooge has nothing on you.

Continentals Holiday pay for the year comes out to $1221.12 more than what AA pays
$5599

Profit sharing plan? Yes, Bob, in 2007 and 2008, CO paid out $269 million in profit sharing for 2006 and 2007, for an average of about $3,000 per employee. How much profit sharing did CO pay out in 2009? Zero. Any idea what next February's payout will be? In years past, CO mechanics got an extra $3,000 each, but they didn't get anything this year and unless CO has a phenomenal fourth quarter, they won't get it next winter either. So on "average," the CO employees got $1,500 extra (if we limit the time frame to 2007-10).

2010 isnt here yet and 2009 was an exceptional year due to the economy so instead of going with speculation on future earnings lets go on past performance. So Im going to stick with the $3000 figure since thats what the Continental guys figure they average.

$5599-3000=$2599

Again, you latch onto bonus payments made to other airline employees while ignoring the extra compensation AA paid you from the piddly stock options distributed in May, 2003. Sure, at maximum value, the options were worth at most $12,000 or so, but that compares favorably to CO's profit sharing payout.

Does it? What's it worth now? $1100 after a six year period, comes out to $183/year. Continental averaged $3000/year, how is that favorable?

Previously, AA mechanics have posted that the only way they've been able to keep up was thru accepting all overtime offered - so no doubt there are AA mechanics at LGA and JFK whose W-2s are much larger than the typical CO mechanic.

No because the company has kept JFK and LGA overstaffed in order to prevent them from showing their dissatisfaction over contract negotiations. So the OT has been much lower than normal this year. They have kept many other stations understaffed and frozen the transfer list because the majority of the mechanics in the Northeast have their transfers in to get out. If they opened the list, which goes by seniority they may not have anybody left in the Northeast which is where they make a lot of their revenue.

Continental also doesnt lose half a days pay for every time they call in sick, figure thats worth another $804 based on 3 occurances a year.
=$1795.

There are a few other items that I'll have to look up when I have the time, one of them may be that Continental has a 401K match in addition to their DP. That would be around $2000.

You said that CO mechanics were already $10k ahead of you. And that's simply a fabrication.

Is it? I just showed you over $10k. Oh yea but according to you sick time, vacation and holiday pay doesnt count as compensation. So when the company says that an extra week of paid vacation adds $10 million dollars to the package is that a fabrication? Same with sick pay holiday pay, doubletime etc etc. You may not want to count things like sick time, vacation pay, holiday pay etc but the company gives those things dollar figures, and so do you when it suits your position. I'm leaving them in.

 

[wcs]

Mr. Owens,
In order to back up your argument (not that you need help), I would say the following;
If all the items that you listed were not compensation then why did the company seek to negotiate them away in 2003. And furthermore why do they not restore them. Each item does in fact cost the company the approximate value that you listed. While the hourly pay at CO may not reach a value of $10K more than AA, you've shown that the total compensation package does.

 

[iluvaa]

So fwaaa I think your argument has been totally debunked so you need not bother with this one any farther. So is it your postion that we never get any improvements or what, its not like we work at burger king. Alot of mechanics have degrees all have some sort of federal license. So why do you think we should be treated poorly, cause we work for a living, or what. The cost of everything is going up so we keep taking pay cuts, at what point do put a stop to that. Even in The cheapest area in the world Tulsa OK its starting to get hard to stretch a check.

 

[AA767JET]

Does anyone know if AA is going to offer another VBR soon for AMT'S ? and if so does it include line stations ?

 

[Hopeful]

Does anyone know if AA is going to offer another VBR soon for AMT'S ? and if so does it include line stations ?

I doubt it. The last VBR was aimed at MCI as the company planned further reductions there. Earlier this year we were told that at JFK they would grant VBRs to those who first applied in 2008. That was cancelled. Then the TWU proudly reports there will be no layoffs ...for the remainder of 2009.
Guess what? Mechanics are tripping over each other at JFK. Less overnite a/c...less work....

Methinks there will be layoffs in 2010...I don't see how they can continue this gross overstaffing.

 

[Rogallo]

Does anyone know if AA is going to offer another VBR soon for AMT'S ? and if so does it include line stations ?

Nobody knows but the company, and the company union. And they ain't talking!!!

 

[FWAAA]

It equates to compensation, otherwise known as pay, if you want to play lawyer here go right ahead but I can tell you that its a fact that the company most certainly puts a dollar figure on Vacation. Are you saying that vacation should not be figured in as compensation or are you just fustrated and grasping at technicalities?

Frustrated and grasping? No, Bob, I'm not the one who posted an outlandish fabrication ("Continental already earns around $10k a year more than we do.") and when challenged on that untrue statement, confuses wages and costs. That would be you.

Once again, you're confusing wages/pay/compensation (the amount the employee earns and takes home) with cost to the employer. As you know, they aren't the same thing. As has been discussed before, employees often cost their employers a lot more than the wages paid to the employee. Vacation is a prime example. Vacation time costs the employer money. The more weeks of vacation granted to employees, the more employees will be necessary so that the work gets done. But you can't pay your mortgage or feed your kids with vacation. If you make $69,222 (base pay max at AA), the number of weeks of vacation you get doesn't affect your "pay," but it does affect your quality of life. At CO, mechanics top out at $69,722, about $500 more than you. As an aside, I encourage you to negotiate more vacation time.

No but if I want to have the same amount of vacation as a similiarly situated mechanic at Continental I have to buy it (Flex Vacation) That lowers my yearly income by one week of pay. So I'm sticking with the $1340 for vacation. $9500 -1340=$8160

So because AA would permit you to throw away a week's pay to get a week off, that means CO mechanics make $1,340 than you? Nice try. Has anyone ever bought that week of vacation?

Once again, sick time accrual has a dollar figure attached to it, obviuosly you've never been involved in negotiations. The extra sick days in the bank (I think they get 10 vs our 5, not sure on that)-$8160-1340=$6820

No, Bob, I've been involved in plenty of negotiations. Can your turn your unused sick days into cash if you stay healthy? If so, then that's real cash compensation. I agree that it was niggardly of AA to cut the number of sick days, as well as the vacation. I encourage you to negotiate to restore those items. There may come a time when you need several weeks/months/whatever of sick time.

Holiday pay bonanza? How do you figure that being paid for your hours worked plus having a paid day off like most people get is a Bonanza? Ebinezer Scrooge has nothing on you.

Continentals Holiday pay for the year comes out to $1221.12 more than what AA pays
$5599

Finally, Bob, you've pointed to something that really does equal extra pay for the CO employees. AA reduced the number of paid holidays in 2003 which saved AA cash and directly reduced your income. I'll take your word for it that their holidays are worth an extra $1,221/yr.

2010 isnt here yet and 2009 was an exceptional year due to the economy so instead of going with speculation on future earnings lets go on past performance. So Im going to stick with the $3000 figure since thats what the Continental guys figure they average.

$5599-3000=$2599

Does it? What's it worth now? $1100 after a six year period, comes out to $183/year. Continental averaged $3000/year, how is that favorable?

CO employees got profit sharing in early 2007 and early 2008, for the profits earned in 2006 and 2007, respectively. About $6,000 average per employee for those two years, or about $3,000 per year.

But as I pointed out, Bob, no profits were earned in 2008, so CO employees got no profits sharing in early 2009. Given the net losses for CO for the first half of 2009, an the likelihood of additional losses in the last half of 2009, it's pretty obvious that there won't be any profits in 2009, so no profit sharing in early 2010 (CO usually pays it out around Valentine's Day for profits earned the previous year). So of the four years since their plan was amended (2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009), CO employees will have received profit sharing payouts in two of those years. It would be optimistic to say they've averaged $1,500 per year ($6,000/4=$1,500). It would be delusional to assert that they average $3,000 per year. And I doubt the average CO mechanic is that delusional.

Did you really sell your 300-400 options for a mere $1,100? Should have held on longer. Or is it a typo and you meant to type $11,000?

Continental also doesnt lose half a days pay for every time they call in sick, figure thats worth another $804 based on 3 occurances a year.
=$1795.

I'm confused about the math here. $804 represents three full days of pay, but you said you lose a half days' pay. So don't the CO mechanics come out $402 ahead?

There are a few other items that I'll have to look up when I have the time, one of them may be that Continental has a 401K match in addition to their DP. That would be around $2000.

They might have a match, but those corporate liars at www.aanegotiations.com say they don't:

http://www.aanegotiations.com/MechanicsPensions.asp

Is it? I just showed you over $10k. Oh yea but according to you sick time, vacation and holiday pay doesnt count as compensation. So when the company says that an extra week of paid vacation adds $10 million dollars to the package is that a fabrication? Same with sick pay holiday pay, doubletime etc etc. You may not want to count things like sick time, vacation pay, holiday pay etc but the company gives those things dollar figures, and so do you when it suits your position. I'm leaving them in.

No, you showed me a lot less than $10k of additonal compensation, plus numerous items that combine to make their mechanics more expensive to CO. And the assumption that profit sharing will add $3,000/yr at CO? There's just no reasonable basis for assuming that will happen. Perhaps CO will have a moderately profitable 2010 - that means that in February, 2011, CO employees might get another $3k or $5k or, if it's a really good year, maybe $10k. Unless, of course, their profit sharing formula is adjusted. In fact, CO has proposed just that - you posted their proposals the other day.

I come up with about $2,125/year in cash compensation plus an extra week of vacation and an extra week of sick time accrual. But $10k? Nope.

 

[Bob Owens]

Frustrated and grasping? No, Bob, I'm not the one who posted an outlandish fabrication ("Continental already earns around $10k a year more than we do.") and when challenged on that untrue statement, confuses wages and costs. That would be you.

You must work for FOX news.

I did not say wages I did not say costs, I said they "earn around $10K more than we do". Clearly you are aware that our compensation-that we earn by working comes in forms other than wages. You seem to feel that if you write enough it makes you right. Vacation is something that we consider part of our compensation and it has a value. If you have to work more hours for the same pay then you are earning less for the work you do. In this case at least $1340 less. You can try and spin out how accountants look at it from an accounting view but nobody but you really cares, they see it the same way I do. If I have to work 40 hours more than you do do make the same amount of money then I earned less for my work than you did, its that simple no matter how you try and spin it.
Perhaps the problem is you are looking at it as an accountant while I'm looking at it as hours worked vs compensation.

So because AA would permit you to throw away a week's pay to get a week off, that means CO mechanics make $1,340 than you?

As a matter of fact it does;
Lets say I compare a 23 year employee at AA to a 23 year employee at Continental. If the AA employee wants to have the same amount of vacation as the Continental employee he has to buy a week of flex vacation. They will reduce his weekly paycheck in sums that will lower his yearly gross by $1340. So the Continental employee gets over $1340 more than the AA employee if they work the same amount of hours.

Has anyone ever bought that week of vacation?

Sure. When you work more than most people time off is important. Most people that I know outside of this industry started off with around 20 total paid days off after the first year, at AA they start with 5.

Can your turn your unused sick days into cash if you stay healthy?

No, only in SJU or $25/day when you retire, but its paid time off if you use them and since we tend to have so little time off we use more sick time.

Finally, Bob, you've pointed to something that really does equal extra pay for the CO employees. AA reduced the number of paid holidays in 2003 which saved AA cash and directly reduced your income. I'll take your word for it that their holidays are worth an extra $1,221/yr.

Did you really sell your 300-400 options for a mere $1,100? Should have held on longer. Or is it a typo and you meant to type $11,000?

Thats what they are worth now to whoever held on to them.

I'm confused about the math here. $804 represents three full days of pay, but you said you lose a half days' pay. So don't the CO mechanics come out $402 ahead?

You lose half pay for the first two days on each occurance, nobody calls in sick for just one day anymore because if you had a relapse you would lose an addition day of pay, so people stay home until they are sure that they have fully recovered, normally a week. So it would be three whole days.

I shorted them on Sick time. They get 12 we get 5. If I get 5 sick days a year and they get 12 then they get 7 more days of pay to use when they are sick, so thats a additional $1840 (not $1340)they would earn for working the same amount of hours.

They might have a match, but those corporate liars at www.aanegotiations.com say they don't:

http://www.aanegotiations.com/MechanicsPensions.asp



No, you showed me a lot less than $10k of additonal compensation, plus numerous items that combine to make their mechanics more expensive to CO. I come up with about $2,125/year in cash compensation plus an extra week of vacation and an extra week of sick time accrual. But $10k? Nope.

They are wrong, I have a copy of their current agreement and you made me dig it out. The 401K match is in LOA#1 dated 1/21/2003 . For a mechanic with my seniority they would match dollar for for dollar a mimimum of $300 , or they would match half of 6% of my contribution from eligible pay as per IRC 401(a)(7). In other words at 69k if the CAL mech put in 6% ($3450)they would put in $1725.


40 hours off for Death or critical illness in the family-we get 24

I forgot to mention IOD pay. At AA we get 80 hrs then we are on our own, at Continental they get 96 hours a year and can accrue 700Hrs. That alone is worth up $20,400 for one injury(Article 11 of the current IBT/CAL agreement.)

They get 8 hours per month and can accrue up to 1600 hrs of sick time vs our 1200, thats worth up to $13,000 if used before retirement. However if they have an illness that causes then to be out of work and use more than 240 hours they will get 12 hrs per month until his sick bank is restored to what he had before the illness, then they go back to 8 hrs per month.

Overtime for training when its in excess of regular hours-we get straight time. We regularly get assigned training after or before our regular shift resulting in a 12 or 14 hour day at straight time rates- thats around $70 per day.

Shift premium Afternoons AA +.01, CAL = .51 Thats $1040 more for CAL

PerDiem $1.95/hr for domestic or $2.50/hr International or whatever the pilots or FAs get (which ever is highest). We get expenses and if they feel we ate too well they refuse to pay them unless we falsify the reports in their favor. If we dont have reciepts I think we get $3 for lunch and $7 for dinner.

CAL still gets Double time for all hours in excess of 12 even if on 4-10s and includes all premiums.

They also have the 30 minutes unpaid lunch but they get a 10 minute rest period the first half of the shift, plus a 10 minute rest period the second half and a Mimimum 10 minutes wash up time, (if they work 4-10s they get three 10 minute rest periods) thats 130 less hours of work a year that they are paid for, around $4000


HNL employees get a $2/hr Geo pay, that would be another $4160 for those guys.

Continental also gave their employees stock. They gave 550,000 shares to the M&R group. LOA #12 (Article 154-N)

CAL also gives their mechanics an annual $100 tool allowance.LOA #28

2125 Holidays
$100 annual tool allowance
1340 Vacation
1840 Sick Time
1040 Shift Premium
2080 Longevity pay after 12 yrs of service $1/hr, we get zero.
1725 401K match

That comes out to $10250 not counting Profit sharing,Training OT, Double Time and up to $20,000 worth of IOD pay, per diem or Geo Pay. .


Admittedly some of these figures are highly variable but no matter how you try and spin it the result is a lot more in their pockets than $500. So $10k is more of a minimum starting point. We could easily get this figure as high as $35000 just using all the numbers here with average OT factored in, field trip, training , Geo and a rare injury thrown in but all that would do is prolong the debate and we are off topic.

The point is AA pays their mechanics way less than Continental, and thats why maintenance is backing up, why Continental gets better performance from their mechanics, why AA cant allow the VBR on the line and why the FAA is getting itchy. AA would rather have the "many miserable" than the "proud & productive".

 

[Bob Owens]

Forgot to add this;

AA CAL Dif HNL
Days $32.75 $32.94 .19/hr $2.19
Aft $32.76 $33.45 .69/hr $2.69
Nights $33.27 $33.52 .25/hr $2.25

Days difference = $395.20
Afternoons difference =$1453.20
Nights difference = $520.00

So the average is $789.47, unless we count their HNL workers then its $4949.47

 

[Thomas Paine]

What happened to FWAAA?