******major Announcement*******

[aafsc]

I am talking about Carty and AA lying in court, you know the PA (if you flip on one in buying a home your down payment is gone). I am talking about the TWU not helping the laid off TWA mechanics. I am talking about our union BROTHERS AND SISTERS (ha ha) not telling their TWA union BROTHERS AND SISTERS that the company was hiring at one station while at the same time the company was still getting rid the TWA folks. I am talking about the company putting these new employees above the TWA people while our UNION BROTHERS AND SISTERS REMAINED SILENT. Do really believe that over 20,000 laid off TWA folks owe you anything? Do you really think all the laid off folks at all the other airlines owe those companies and unions anything? Then you really will never get it.

[post="202226"][/post]​

Carty and AA fufilled their agreement in court. They said "remove your labor protective provisions in your contract and we will offer you employment and we will give you top pay and benefits as the AA employees have. TWA's UNIONS agreed to this. AA used it's best efforts, by hiring a facilitator to work with the unions on seniority. However, Carty or AA is not the legal bargaining representative for AA people. My seniority was not his to give away.AA's unions had a legal obligation to protect the incumbent AA employees. This was proven in court when the TWA pilots lost their lawsuit against AA, APA, and TWA llc. As far TWU not helping laid off TWA people, when I was laid off in 1992, the TWU did nothing for me and The IAM did absolutely nothing for the EAL people. The TWA people owe me nothing and I owe them nothing. You got your seniority in STL and MCI only because of the AFL_CIO. I think you are upset because you can not use your TWA seniority to "stick it" to the AA people in their bases.

 

[aafsc]

I suppose you TWAers would have been more than happy to displace every AAer that you could have!

Prior to 9/11 AMR was about the most financially strong carrier. We all know what happened afterwards. Do you think TWA would have survived on its own?

Be happy what you got.

[post="202238"][/post]​

Exactly

 

[aafsc]

I am pointing to the fact that the recent furloughs at MCIE and STL are targeted at TWA mechanics and related. Are you telling me there are AA mechanics amongst those? AA is finally going to be able to rid itself of the older workforce, you know, the ones topped out in benefits and pay.

There is no shared anything with you all, the only saving grace is that once we are all furloughed/retired then the company can come after you. Your cushion is shrinking, your protectionary clause is not bullet proof, and you may be real close to experiencing your first furlough. You have absolutely no solidarity amongst your rank and file, the company has and will continue to walk all over you while you sit back and cry about the union's actions or lack thereof.

Wish you all the best of luck!

[post="202200"][/post]​

Yes, according to the seniority list there are 14 AA mechanics at MCI who will be laid off. Plus there are AA line mechanics who have been and will be laid off. Your definition of shared sacrafice is "let me take my seniority from a dead company and use it to take the jobs of people whose company was successful. Let the AA people pay the price for my TWA's failure while I enjoy the wages and benefits they fought for over the years." By your post, I can see that you would take joy in the fact that more of us "nAAtives" will be laid off. FYI, I have already experienced furlough at AA. And when UA is finally finished totally raping and destoying their people, AA and all the others will follow. So you will get your wish. As for me I'm prepared, there was life after EAL and there will be life after AA. But you TWA people will be the first to go (AS IT SHOULD BE). Unless they find third party work (which it looks like they will not) MCI will be shut down in short order IMO. I'm surprised they kept it open this long. Given that the TWA pilots lost their lawsuit and the STL ramp lost theirs the conclusion is YOU"VE BEEN BEATEN. However, you should be very thankful that you got an extra 4 years at top pay (even with the latest concessions you are still making more than you were at TWA) and you might have retiree health care and passes.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, according to the seniority list there are 14 AA mechanics at MCI who will be laid off. Plus there are AA line mechanics who have been and will be laid off. Your definition of shared sacrafice is "let me take my seniority from a dead company and use it to take the jobs of people whose company was successful. Let the AA people pay the price for my TWA's failure while I enjoy the wages and benefits they fought for over the years." By your post, I can see that you would take joy in the fact that more of us "nAAtives" will be laid off. FYI, I have already experienced furlough at AA. And when UA is finally finished totally raping and destoying their people, AA and all the others will follow. So you will get your wish. As for me I'm prepared, there was life after EAL and there will be life after AA. But you TWA people will be the first to go (AS IT SHOULD BE). Unless they find third party work (which it looks like they will not) MCI will be shut down in short order IMO. I'm surprised they kept it open this long. Given that the TWA pilots lost their lawsuit and the STL ramp lost theirs the conclusion is YOU"VE BEEN BEATEN. However, you should be very thankful that you got an extra 4 years at top pay (even with the latest concessions you are still making more than you were at TWA) and you might have retiree health care and passes.

[post="202357"][/post]​

Exactly!

 

[Bob Owens]

Exactly!

[post="202381"][/post]​

Its something how NW and a few others from MCI will go on and on about the seniority issue but when you bring up EAL all of a sudden they dissapear.

EAL workers were IAM yet despite that the TWA IAM workers never saw fit to make arrangements for the EAL workers to get seniority. They claim "Its different because EAL went out of business, TWA was bought". The decisions that led to EALs bankruptcy and TWAs purchase were solely management decisions, it seems that these guys want to give management more power over unions by having control over whether or not employees will carry seniority on to their next employer.

EAL workers fought Frank Lorenzo to the bitter end. All workers benifited.

TWA IAM on the other hand gave, and gave, and gave, to their corporate masters. Now they feel that they should be rewarded through the union system of seniority for bowing down to the company and have the right to bump the ex-EAL workers out on to the street.

In other words the message they want to send to all workers is that its better to give in than to fight the company. If they got their way the EAL guys would have been screwed twice for fighting back while they would have walked right into a company they never worked for with top seniority and a top pay they never fought for.

Whats even worse is that now that they are here they have brought their pacifist ideology with them. If MCI was not counted, the concessions of 2003 would have been voted down. MCI provided the margin needed. Maybe now they will learn that not fighting does not always pay off as despite their performance it appears that MCI will continue to shrink.

 

[Workingman]

Carty and AA fufilled their agreement in court. They said "remove your labor protective provisions in your contract and we will offer you employment and we will give you top pay and benefits as the AA employees have. TWA's UNIONS agreed to this. AA used it's best efforts, by hiring a facilitator to work with the unions on seniority. However, Carty or AA is not the legal bargaining representative for AA people. My seniority was not his to give away.AA's unions had a legal obligation to protect the incumbent AA employees. This was proven in court when the TWA pilots lost their lawsuit against AA, APA, and TWA llc. As far TWU not helping laid off TWA people, when I was laid off in 1992, the TWU did nothing for me and The IAM did absolutely nothing for the EAL people. The TWA people owe me nothing and I owe them nothing. You got your seniority in STL and MCI only because of the AFL_CIO. I think you are upset because you can not use your TWA seniority to "stick it" to the AA people in their bases.

[post="202336"][/post]​

First Carty and AA did not fulfill their agreement which was NOT AN OFFER BUT AN AGREEMENT TO HIRE. Second Carty and AA knew when they AGREED TO HIRE NOT OFFER what the contracts of the unions stated so he COULD NOT AGREE TO THE STATEMENT TO HIRE ALL OF THE TWA FOLKS AND THERE FORE LIED TO THE COURT.

Third when the labor protectice clause was removed it was done NOT ON AN OFFER BUT AN AGREEMENT TO HIRE.

Fourth Carty and AA at that point DID NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO LAY OFF TWA FOLKS AT ONE CITY WHILE AT THE SAME TIME HIRING OFF THE STREET AND PUTTING THE NEW HIRES AHEAD ON THE SENIORITY LIST. We have in print that the company did this.

Fifth when this happened THE TWA FOLKS FELL UNDER THE TWU CONTRACT SO WE DID HAVE RIGHTS ALSO.

Six when an ex TWA employee applies for another job with AA and they are turned down because for one reason THEY ARE EX TWA PEOPLE, AA IS NOT FULFILLING THAT AGREEMENT.

Do you want copies of the court papers you finally get it? Do you think the ex TWA people that were never hired owe you or AA anything?

 

[aafsc]

First Carty and AA did not fulfill their agreement which was NOT AN OFFER BUT AN AGREEMENT TO HIRE. Second Carty and AA knew when they AGREED TO HIRE NOT OFFER what the contracts of the unions stated so he COULD NOT AGREE TO THE STATEMENT TO HIRE ALL OF THE TWA FOLKS AND THERE FORE LIED TO THE COURT.

Third when the labor protectice clause was removed it was done NOT ON AN OFFER BUT AN AGREEMENT TO HIRE.

Fourth Carty and AA at that point DID NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO LAY OFF TWA FOLKS AT ONE CITY WHILE AT THE SAME TIME HIRING OFF THE STREET AND PUTTING THE NEW HIRES AHEAD ON THE SENIORITY LIST. We have in print that the company did this.

Fifth when this happened THE TWA FOLKS FELL UNDER THE TWU CONTRACT SO WE DID HAVE RIGHTS ALSO.

Six when an ex TWA employee applies for another job with AA and they are turned down because for one reason THEY ARE EX TWA PEOPLE, AA IS NOT FULFILLING THAT AGREEMENT.

Do you want copies of the court papers you finally get it? Do you think the ex TWA people that were never hired owe you or AA anything?

[post="202501"][/post]​

I remember that when the news of the TWA/AA deal was first announced, that the newspapers said "AA to OFFER employment to TWA's unionized employees". If I remember my business law class correctly, (7 years ago) you had to have an offer before you can have an agreement. Example, I will give you $20 if you wash my car. (an offer). You accept (we have an agreement) you don't accept (we don't have an agreement. It's called a conditional contract, if I remember correctly. In the case of AA and TW unions, AA- We will give you employment at AA pay rates and benefits IF you delete your labor protective provisions of your contract (Offer) TW Unions- we accept your terms (you have an agreement) TW Unions- No we do not accept your terms (you have no agreement.) Again a conditional contract.
On 4/10/01,AA DID HIRE ALL TWA DOMESTIC UNIONIZED EMPLOYEES. However, shortly afterwards they started laying off some of these people in the smalll cities like Sioux Falls, S.D., Moline, Ill. , etc. Then 9/11 hit and they layed off 15,000 from AA, 3,000 from TWA llc., and 1,200 from Eagle. I remember the notice that was sent out after the attacks.
AA can not guarantee any employee( AA or former TW) a job for life. As to hiring people off the street while laying TW people off, I have never seen this at any of the stations I worked at. I'll just take your word for it. When someone applies for a non-union job, AA can hire whoever they want to. The agreement called for TW people to have a job in the form of a union job they held at TW. AA offered employment to some non-union, management, and specialist people but AA never said all would be hired. I never said that TWA people owe me anything. They owe me nothing and I owe them nothing.

 

[Bob Owens]

Workingman,Nov 20 2004, 03:18 AM]
First Carty and AA did not fulfill their agreement which was NOT AN OFFER BUT AN AGREEMENT TO HIRE.

Second Carty and AA knew when they AGREED TO HIRE NOT OFFER what the contracts of the unions stated so he COULD NOT AGREE TO THE STATEMENT TO HIRE ALL OF THE TWA FOLKS AND THERE FORE LIED TO THE COURT.

Third when the labor protectice clause was removed it was done NOT ON AN OFFER BUT AN AGREEMENT TO HIRE.

Then why remove the LPPs? If you believe that the offer was to hire you under the provisions of the contract then why did the IAM agree to remove those provisions?



Fourth Carty and AA at that point DID NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO LAY OFF TWA FOLKS AT ONE CITY WHILE AT THE SAME TIME HIRING OFF THE STREET AND PUTTING THE NEW HIRES AHEAD ON THE SENIORITY LIST. We have in print that the company did this.

You are right on that point. All you need to prove it is a copy of the seniority list. It seemed as if AA went on a hiring spree while at the same time there were many TWA guys out on the street. It was definately odd that the company was hiring new hires at a feverish rate while at the same time there were guys from TWA out on the street. We knew that once the TWA guys came over that we would have too many workers and those recently hired would be laid off. It was a cruel move by the company towards both the TWA guys out on the street and the new hires. This issue was brought forward to the TWU International but they did not seem to care.

Fifth when this happened THE TWA FOLKS FELL UNDER THE TWU CONTRACT SO WE DID HAVE RIGHTS ALSO.

Not really, at the time you were TWA-LLC, covered under the IAM. However it was clear that you guys would eventually be coming over.

Six when an ex TWA employee applies for another job with AA and they are turned down because for one reason THEY ARE EX TWA PEOPLE, AA IS NOT FULFILLING THAT AGREEMENT.

Well from what I've seen TWA people have been hired into management positions, if that is what you are talking about.

Do you want copies of the court papers you finally get it?

Sure.

Do you think the ex TWA people that were never hired owe you or AA anything?

No, do you think that the workers who were already here owe them anything?

Workingman, what is the point of argueing over this? OK, you did not get your seniority. You guys sacrificed for years to save a dying company, your sacrifices did not help the company or other workers in this industry, but yet some feel that they should be rewarded at the expense of others for that sacrifice.

When you came to AA you recieved the largest increase in pay that you ever saw. You also were kept employed at that higher rate until you voted to lower it.

Now the company is reducing its workforce at a rate that is in excess of attrition. Since you guys are the most recent AA employees you are the first to go. Its unfortunate but thats the way its done. You are merely the latest victims of the flawed structure of unionism that has plauged workers in this industry for the last twenty years. Your IAM affiliation meant very little to the TWU, and why should it, they are competitors.

What we should have done was all get into one union and establish an industry seniority system that allows us to take our seniority with us from company to company. If we had then we would no doubt be in much better shape than we are today. With portable seniority the company's ability to extract concessions by using our own seniority as leverage would be greatly reduced. Strikes would be much less intimidating to the workforce if they knew that they could go somewhere else and not have to start at the bottom.

But, unfortunately for you guys, we have no such system, nor are there any plans whatsoever by the incumbant unions to establish such a system. There is only one way that this could ever happen, we must all get into one union first them establish it. There is only one way to do that, we must leave the TWU IAM and IBT and join an organization that seeks to unite our class and craft. For mechanics its AMFA. For other ground workers its the AGW.

So unless you are ready to try and start another union, these are your options. You can stay within a structure that even its leaders know is faulty, that has ushered in a steady 20 year decline in wages and living standards in an industry that has expanded by trememdous leaps and bounds, or we can try a concept that has proven itself for Longshoremen, autoworkers and various skilled professions such as Pilots and construction workers-industrywide solidarity.

Last week the AFA called for an industry strike, they are AFL-CIO. All there is to hear from the other AFL-CIO unions is silence.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

"Last week the AFA called for an industry strike, they are AFL-CIO. All there is to hear from the other AFL-CIO unions is silence."

Bob, if you listen real close you can hear a sound. That sound is industrial unions in the afl-cio in the airline industry shaking their knees in fear of having to actually fight for their members.

There is also a sucking sound. This most likely from appointed leaders sticking their craniums someplace the sun does not shine. h34r:

The twu... an organization that claims to have the afl-cio as a "strength". But when a sister union in this famed afl-cio calls for action the twu is nowhere to be found. h34r:

 

[Nightwatch]

So by your AA native statements I can only presume that had the roles been reversed then we'd live in harmony.

And Bob, I'm still at a loss at what you are referring to with EAL. TWA did not buy/merge/sponsor/adopt anyone from EAL. Did some mechanics leave EAL and hire , "AS NEW HIRES/EMPLOYEES" with TWA, sure did, but so did many others from FBO's, other airlines, and the armed service...so what's your point or agenda on this? If you feel they should be hired, or for that fact, anyone be hired at any airline with your seniority then you need to go have another dinner with Delle, if you can locate him, and ask him to change the ways the 8 airlines he represents.

We at MCI bent over backwards for EAL members here locally, up to and including paying rent and utilitues for some members...let me ask you this...anyone collecting $$$ for any furloughed employees anywhere?

I see a bunch of members in here needing to feel better about their non union look on life. It's no wonder the comnpanies can roll over on you guys with your "for me" attitude.

 

[Buck]

So by your AA native statements I can only presume that had the roles been reversed then we'd live in harmony.

And Bob, I'm still at a loss at what you are referring to with EAL. TWA did not buy/merge/sponsor/adopt anyone from EAL. Did some mechanics leave EAL and hire , "AS NEW HIRES/EMPLOYEES" with TWA, sure did, but so did many others from FBO's, other airlines, and the armed service...so what's your point or agenda on this? If you feel they should be hired, or for that fact, anyone be hired at any airline with your seniority then you need to go have another dinner with Delle, if you can locate him, and ask him to change the ways the 8 airlines he represents.

We at MCI bent over backwards for EAL members here locally, up to and including paying rent and utilitues for some members...let me ask you this...anyone collecting $$$ for any furloughed employees anywhere?

I see a bunch of members in here needing to feel better about their non union look on life. It's no wonder the comnpanies can roll over on you guys with your "for me" attitude.

[post="203208"][/post]​

And many at AA feel as if they bent over backwards for you.

 

[Drippy Quill]

And many at AA feel as if they bent over backwards for you.

[post="203234"][/post]​

So tell me Buckster, just what scenario would have given your members a just feeling? And how is it you or anyone else bent over anything for us? The way I see it, you were already bent over when ya noticed us....HAHAHA!!!

 

[Buck]

So tell me Buckster, just what scenario would have given your members a just feeling? And how is it you or anyone else bent over anything for us? The way I see it, you were already bent over when ya noticed us....HAHAHA!!!

[post="203288"][/post]​

I will answer as an adult, I hope that you can understand.

When the Kasher decesion was complete, it was the position of many of the members that you should have been stapled to the bottom of the seniority list. How many times must I repeat such an obvious position. Your destiny was not just that of the TWU and its members, but that of the IAM, AA and the bankruptcy court.

You are correct, the membership represented by the TWU has been bent over for over twenty years.

 

[Drippy Quill]

And you are part of it, when is the last time you walked erect? I understood their position 3 years ago in reference to the stapling, and I stand firm in my position of that being a non union act. You and yours were worried about only one thing, yourselves. The age of our mechanics and their seniority worried a group of members that had never faced a furlough due to any seniority issues, go figure. Now you see why I think you all have that "FOR ME" attitude. No wonder your group is upset with the TWU, you are the TWU.

 

[Buck]

And you are part of it, when is the last time you walked erect? I understood their position 3 years ago in reference to the stapling, and I stand firm in my position of that being a non union act. You and yours were worried about only one thing, yourselves. The age of our mechanics and their seniority worried a group of members that had never faced a furlough due to any seniority issues, go figure. Now you see why I think you all have that "FOR ME" attitude. No wonder your group is upset with the TWU, you are the TWU.

[post="203298"][/post]​

Until I had the opportunity to have dialogue with you I had taken the position of granting the former TWA employees their seniority. I took the time to research Allegheny-Mohawk and wasan advocate of its merits until you have changed my mind.

I believe it was the TWU and the IAM that agreed to drop Allegheny-Mohawk.

My group is far from the TWU. My group took the position to remove the TWU. It was your group that took their position and now that you have been abused you are being a cry baby. You may be older and hold more seniority as an aircraft mechanic, but you portray yourself as imatuture and inexperienced.