i am sick of this. i was hired by AA in early 2000 on my own merit. i did not apply to any other airline. i have flown with a few other AA fas who quit TWA to come to AA because they knew that TWA was in bad shape. i should not be penalized because someone else stayed at a failing airline! AA told IAM that AA would negotiate a fair and equitable solution to the seniorty integration. but AA isn't the bargaining rep. for AA's fas. APFA is! i am sorry that 30 year fas, 10 year fas and 2 year fas are on furlough. but to say that a 30 year fa should have his/her job over a 4 year is simply wrong. i could have applied with TWA but i went with someone who wasn't doing as badly as TWA! and a bunch of former TWA fas did the same!
Merger "facts"
- Thread starter Ukridge
- Start date
TravelDude
Advanced
- Nov 21, 2003
- 205
- 0
What a boring post this is, perhaps it would be relevant if some announcement was made about a merger. Until then...WHY STRESS PEOPLE!
Now, how about start a relevant post to what is happening these days in the UA world.
Laughing, could the moderator lock this post
:huh:
Now, how about start a relevant post to what is happening these days in the UA world.
Laughing, could the moderator lock this post
:huh:
Walmartgreeter
Veteran
As I read it, the current bill, vetoed or not, provides no relief to UAL on it's pension problems. Billions of pension liability with almost a half a billion loss in the last quarter.......sounds a little like the guy in Monty Python with his arms an legs being cut off saying "bring it on". I think U has a 50/50 chance of going chapter 7. I think UAL has less than a 50/50 chance of getting the ATSB loan promises. Neither group has any true "career expectations." Just my opinion. Good luck to you all, both airlines.iflyjetz said:
Nice of you to be diplomatic, but this is about the concept that if one company buys another, it is done so because the buying company sees value in doing so. I just firmly believe if one company desides to buy another...in this case airlines...that said company should honor those employees as if one of their own. Merging DOH is fair and honorable...oh but I forgot, we ARE talking about the airline industry, which knows NOTHING about honor.trollydolly said:
firstamendment, and most of the posters on this thread were talking about AFA policy, which is in fact DOH.
As usual, its not ALL about the pilots!
As usual, its not ALL about the pilots!
IF a UA/US merger were to take place, and IF it came down to DOH integration for the seniority lists or any other means of integrating both staffs, I would hope and pray that the surviving company would offer some incentive for early retirements.
I know it takes some money up front, but for the life of me... through the past couple of years (even before 9/11) I've been baffled as to why management would keep the senior people around? Getting them onto their pensions and off payroll would be fantastic! It's a win win! People that have had a long career can take a little pocket change and retire, and management would have a much cheaper workforce!
But this is the aviation world and by it's very definition should never make sense or be predictable!
FA4UA
I know it takes some money up front, but for the life of me... through the past couple of years (even before 9/11) I've been baffled as to why management would keep the senior people around? Getting them onto their pensions and off payroll would be fantastic! It's a win win! People that have had a long career can take a little pocket change and retire, and management would have a much cheaper workforce!
But this is the aviation world and by it's very definition should never make sense or be predictable!
FA4UA
Agreed, FA4UA. We wish that would happen anyway at U. Almost all of the remaining F/As are A scale or about to become it. If we had no voluntary furlough program, the most junior F/A would have a 1989 hire date.
Here, here...You are so right on. The airlines like UAL and U dropped the ball by not offering incentives for the most senior to retire. At U, if the company would add 5 years to the age of the f/a's desiring to leave without penalty to their retirement, I promise you 1500 senior f/as would be out the door, gladly. We have alot of f/a's that are 58-60 years old and would go. The problem is that management is looking at now and not at the future savings.FA4UA said:IF a UA/US merger were to take place, and IF it came down to DOH integration for the seniority lists or any other means of integrating both staffs, I would hope and pray that the surviving company would offer some incentive for early retirements.
I know it takes some money up front, but for the life of me... through the past couple of years (even before 9/11) I've been baffled as to why management would keep the senior people around? Getting them onto their pensions and off payroll would be fantastic! It's a win win! People that have had a long career can take a little pocket change and retire, and management would have a much cheaper workforce!
But this is the aviation world and by it's very definition should never make sense or be predictable!
FA4UA
What a shame. Take out that group and bring back our junior furloughs and our overall seniority would look more like UAL's. Believe me, at 17 years at any company there should be some rewards for longevity. The problem now is that things have changed. The business world finds no honor in the dedication of thousands of seasoned employees at U. We cost more. Our cost per seat mile is around 9 cents and SWA is 7. SWA gets the praise, but they also have grown alot and have alot of f/a's on the lower end of the payscale, keeping their cost lower. And don't get me started on 4 year old Jetblue, whose entire workforce payroll is the equivilent of all new hire pay.
So just remember, We at U understand the seniority problem. It just gets tiring feeling like you should apologize for years of service to your company.
Fliboifliboi78 said:
YOUR airline bought TWA. YOUR airline either saw value in TWA or bought them to try to be the biggest airline in the world. If you buy an airline, you buy their people AND their senority.
You can provide all the excuses in the world. I will respect you more if you would just state your truth, which is like most: I am a selfish, egotist, looking after my own interest. I feel my lowly 4 years of seniority at AA is more pure because I am a real AA f/a. The TWA f/a's are not real AA f/a's and deserve to not be here. My pals that quit TWA and went to AA should be rewarded for jumping the boat. They should not be penalized for waiting. It's all about me me me me me...period.
As silly as it seems, most fall in this category but are too cowardly to admit it. AND, just because AA "appears" to be on top of the world, you are NOT the "desired" airline and respected company to work for and AA is as vulnerable as any to "fail". There are two new sheriffs in town...Southwest and Jetblue. The word on the street is no longer "I wish I worked for AA"...it's I wanna work for Jetblue or Southwest" So enjoy your longevity of 4 whole years at AA and talk to me about industry issues when you have 15 or 20 years. One's opinion of this industry changes with time.
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
I just don't understand all this talk about seniority integration, slotting, date of hire, etc...
Everyone who enters this industry, whether you're a pilot, F/A, mechanic, dispatcher, or whatever, knows two indisputable facts:
#1- EVERYTHING is based on seniority.
#2- You are married to your airline for better or for worse.
When I worked for TWA, I always knew it was a stepping stone. I knew that if I stayed, I ran the risk of ending up on the bottom of someone else's seniority list. Therefore I actively pursued other options, and chose United.
There are those who argue that it's all up to chance, and we work for the first major airline who will hire us. They claim that since it is not a choice but rather chance, then if things go badly they have a right to a "do-over." I disagree. I believe that a vast majority of people target the airline they want to work for. Everyone has their own reasons, be it location, type of flying, reputation, work culture, pay, etc.
Since we all know the indisputable facts above, and the same rules apply to everyone, no one can claim to be a victim of another work group if things go badly at their airline. IMO, although UA has challenges to over come I believe we will survive and prosper again in the near future. However, if things go badly and UA disappears, I know that in all likelyhood I will end up starting over somewhere else at the bottom.
I've accepted this since the day I walked into this career. Fair or not, seniority rules, and that is just a fact of life for all of us.
Everyone who enters this industry, whether you're a pilot, F/A, mechanic, dispatcher, or whatever, knows two indisputable facts:
#1- EVERYTHING is based on seniority.
#2- You are married to your airline for better or for worse.
When I worked for TWA, I always knew it was a stepping stone. I knew that if I stayed, I ran the risk of ending up on the bottom of someone else's seniority list. Therefore I actively pursued other options, and chose United.
There are those who argue that it's all up to chance, and we work for the first major airline who will hire us. They claim that since it is not a choice but rather chance, then if things go badly they have a right to a "do-over." I disagree. I believe that a vast majority of people target the airline they want to work for. Everyone has their own reasons, be it location, type of flying, reputation, work culture, pay, etc.
Since we all know the indisputable facts above, and the same rules apply to everyone, no one can claim to be a victim of another work group if things go badly at their airline. IMO, although UA has challenges to over come I believe we will survive and prosper again in the near future. However, if things go badly and UA disappears, I know that in all likelyhood I will end up starting over somewhere else at the bottom.
I've accepted this since the day I walked into this career. Fair or not, seniority rules, and that is just a fact of life for all of us.
What a terrible thing to say. I was recently jumpseating on a B6 flight (for those that know me on the US board... I am able to jumpseat on FAR 121 carriers even though I am not currently an airline employee... enough said, don't ask me any more questions about my current job!)fliboi78 said:
In the back galley I struck up a conversation with the #3 F/A who looked to be in her mid 50's. I was intrigued with her because B6 has a very junior staff, and I know many of the F/A's there because my son is an employee there - however, I did not recognize her. I got to talking with her, and she gave me the most wonderful stories...
This woman had been a F/A with TWA for 32 years. She began her career at STL, and over the course of her career was based at LAX, MIA, FLL, & JFK. She told me about how she loved her new job with B6, because all she had to do was hand out snacks to 156 pax.
But then she started telling me about her days at TW, and suddenly I could tell she was getting a little upset. "I used to serve 40 Kosher meals in first on a 747 from JFK-Tel Aviv." She ended her conversation by telling me that when she was furloughed from AA, there were still 800 TW flight attendents ahead of her on the senority list (all of whom who have been furloughed as well).
This story really hit home for me. Shame on any of you that say D-O-H is not a proper policy. You think that the F/A's from TW should have realized that they were working for a "sinking company?" Get a life! Some people actually have a strong allegiance to the company they work for. In fact, most employees of airlines will take a "I will go down with this ship" mentality. Personally, my "company" can never go down, but if I worked for a pubicly traded company that was struggling, I would never abandon it. I would stay to the bitter end! Think about it, there were 800 F/A's at TWA who had more than 32 years senority, and even when they knew they were in trouble, they didn't simply go out and find a new airline... they hung on to their job and their corporate family to the bitter end.
American Airlines should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. What they did to ALL TWA employees is in my opinion, disgusting. I am not just saying that because TWA used to be a big company... I think what they did with Reno Air is wrong too. Thank goodness that B6 existed for this one gal whom I spoke to. When you think about it, all F/A's are in the same profession and if a company buys another company, they are buying their work staff as well. The hell with the rest of you naysayers, the only reason you are so angry is because you got in the game late (4 years ago... I wonder how many people you have served from JFK-Tel Aviv?)
To the folks from UAL who have been so supportive in this thread... I applaud you. As I mentioned a few months back, I did see UAL F/A's assulting US flight attendants in SFO when the US/UAmerger was on the table, and in one instance, I actually came between two gentlemen who were nearing blows. There is absolutely no need for this at all. To the folks at US, I hope if something goes down that D-O-H is in effect for you all. You have been through a lot, as well as everyone else in this industry since late 2000. Best of luck to all of the legacy airline employees. As far as I can tell, you will need it.
Maybe I missed something. Where is UAL going to get the money to purchase US and how are they going to assume so much of US's debt load? I am not a math wizard or an accountant, but I can't see how UAL will be able to pull this off. Sorry.
