MSP gains DL HNL flights

[eolesen]

In theory, as DL and UA remove the 744 from Pacific flying, they're going to have to add some frequencies to maintain their seat share.

I find it humorous that it's now a disadvantage for AA and UA to have "older aircraft" vs DL's shiny new A359's, yet a few months back when the discussion was about new vs. used and fuel economy, DL was the one with the advantage because they were buying used inefficient airplanes at a discount to what AA or UA were paying in new aircraft ownership expense...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't speak to DL's advantage in the int'l market because the RFP was still open.

AA and UA will have advantages.

again the question is what AA and UA will do with their much larger fleets of 777s, esp. since AA is still taking delivery of 777-300ERs which DL decided aren't worth flying because the economics are not favorable compared to new generation widebodies. UA's 777 fleet is older so they might start retiring them more aggressively.

AA has some older 777s as well but given that AA is essentially flying the 777-300ER with about 15 seats more than DL has on the 777-200LR, the economics of the two are very similar. The question is how AA's costs will look when it has a high percentage of 777s still in service long after DL and UA have wound down much of their 777 flying. DL's LRs might be around for a while but there are only 10 of them.

I still suspect that AA will have to start writing down 777s before long because they will have more int'l aircraft than they can profitably deploy and the economics of the 777s just won't compare well when new generation aircraft start coming in, including AA's own 787s and 350s.

 

[metopower]

DL didn't order the 777 for one reason... Could not get them in a timely manner. Will DL get more 777 's ...In my opinion yes and I believe before 2017. Will AA get rid of any 777's. ..no. Right now all airlines need the seats and AA has LHR to use that AC. The right AC for DL is the 777ER and there will be plenty of used ER's out there soon. Boeing offered LR's ..great AC but not the right tool for the DL system.

 

[WorldTraveler]

meto,
multiple sources say DL was offered 777LRs as a short-term placement for 787s which Boeing could not deliver in the timeframe in which DL wanted.

are you saying you believe DL will still buy 777s, new or used?

is it true that the economics of the 772ER and LR are pretty comparable on missions over 4000 miles? if so, the value of used 777s will be driven by the value for which they can be obtained.

 

[Kev3188]

I find it humorous that it's now a disadvantage for AA and UA to have "older aircraft" vs DL's shiny new A359's, yet a few months back when the discussion was about new vs. used and fuel economy, DL was the one with the advantage because they were buying used inefficient airplanes at a discount to what AA or UA were paying in new aircraft ownership expense...

It's a flexible narrative, E...
 
 

multiple sources say ...

Which sources are those? Do you have links? I'd like to check 'em out...

 

[metopower]

The LR's that were offered were either used and I am sure DL had been offered them before. If they were new they would come too late to help the short fall in the fleet. The LR is much more expensive to own and too much capability for the requirement. I love the AC but those are just the facts.

 

[WorldTraveler]

there are sources that say that Boeing offered DL new 777-200LRs as the first part of proposal for an order for 787-9s.

here is one

http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2014/11/25/analysis-delta-order-for-a350-a330neo-hinged-on-pricing-availability/

there are other articles linked in that article that provide information on what was offered

 

[Kev3188]

Great. Thanks.

 

[WorldTraveler]

you are welcome, sir. and forgive me if the "kevvie" monikor was offensive to you.

to Meto's point, I still think it is possible that DL could pick up some used 772ERs and I do agree they will start becoming available in large numbers fairly soon but the price will have to be considerably lower than other new aircraft. Considering that Airbus supposedly discounted the 339s at more than 60% off list price, used 772ERs have to fairly low priced... but Anderson has repeatedly said that there will be a glut of used widebody aircraft on the market which will force down values.

 

[robbedagain]

Meto whats the difference btwn the 772 er and lr models

 

[topDawg]

meto,
multiple sources say DL was offered 777LRs as a short-term placement for 787s which Boeing could not deliver in the timeframe in which DL wanted.

are you saying you believe DL will still buy 777s, new or used?

is it true that the economics of the 772ER and LR are pretty comparable on missions over 4000 miles? if so, the value of used 777s will be driven by the value for which they can be obtained.

used Trent powered 777s are very possible if Delta can find them. Problem right now is a lot of them that are being parked are birds used for intra-Asia flying and are old and basically 777-200A models (80K engines, much lower MTOW. Some of the SQ birds I believe even have smaller bag bin doors) 
 

The LR's that were offered were either used and I am sure DL had been offered them before. If they were new they would come too late to help the short fall in the fleet. The LR is much more expensive to own and too much capability for the requirement. I love the AC but those are just the facts.

They were new LRs. 
 

Meto whats the difference btwn the 772 er and lr models

just a quick little break down. 
 
Landing gear and engines are some of the biggest changes. The wings also have 764 style tips on them. The LRs have GE90-110B1s on them, the 200ERs (at Delta) have RR Trent 895s on them. Landing gear on the LRs are the same as the 777-300ER. 

 

[metopower]

Thanks for answering for me. I'll do the same for you one day. Your info is correct. By the way I am not a fan of your favorite engine. Then again I just use it and don't work on it.

 

[topDawg]

Thanks for answering for me. I'll do the same for you one day. Your info is correct. By the way I am not a fan of your favorite engine. Then again I just use it and don't work on it.

i figured you might want to kick in some differences from the view upstairs. The LR is a little more fun to do a full power run than the ER. Shakes a little more. Ha.  
 
which engine is that?
 
Delta doesn't have anymore of my favorite engines (RB211) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

robbed,
meto can contribute - and hope he will - but the LR is a performance machine that is unmatched among widebody aircraft.

as you probably know it is the only aircraft that can fly the 16 hour flight from JNB (6000 ft above sea level) to the US with a full passenger load year round.

it also has a considerably higher max take off weight paired the enormously powerful GE engines which means even on shorter routes it can carry plenty of cargo from hot airports like DXB or on long routes like DTW-HKG (which DL once flew).

DL has operated it from ATL-LAX as part of the rotation thru to Australia/Asia and it just leaps off the runway... I'm sure meto has flown that route but it is like 757s on 1 hour domestic flights.

It is really a very niche aircraft but DL mgmt. decided it was the best thing available at the time and there are routes which DL can do because of the LR or which perform a whole lot better because of the LR's capabilities.

again, I hope meto adds more commentary but it will be a sad day when the 757 and LR leave service.

you may also know that DL has a history of ordering aircraft with the highest thrust engines available - in contrast to what NW did.

DL's 767-300ERs are still pretty capable aircraft - not sure if meto flew them.

 

[metopower]

Yes I have 777. 767-400. 767 ER 767 757 m88 m 90 737 727 dc10 m11.....and others....b757 is my favorite. 777lr is close second...not a fan of the 767er.