Trans-atlantic 757 & 767-400

[PLANES333]

Delta's new transformation plan clearly states that the airline will focus on more lucrative international flying. With the majority of DL's 767-300ER fleet being devoted to TRANS-ATLANTIC and the remaining 777-200ER's being deployed onto NRT flights from ATL and new China services there seems to be little room for growth unless more 777 aircraft are ordered or other current fleet types are deployed to TRANS-ATLANTIC markets. That being said, what is currently prohibiting DL from using their 757 and 767-400 for transatlantic flying? CO uses of fleet mix of 757/767-200/767-400/777 to Europe. This gives them more flexibility to accommodate seasonal changes in demand and to expand in markets that can not support larger aircraft.

Having worked for DL at JFK, I know that many of their TRANS-ATLANTIC services could support additional seats and or frequencies, however operating the 767-300ER and occasionally the 777 solely on TRANS-ATLANTIC flights does not afford Delta the opportunity to soak up extra capacity and or expand into thinner markets.

What is the difference between CO's 757's and DL's 757's

Could DL fly their 767-400ER aircraft to Europe, or does their ALPA contract prohibit this.


Thanks for your input!!!

PLANES333

 

[flyhigh]

Planes-

There's a couple issues you're asking about...I'll do my best to answer.

CO757 vs DL757...I think first and foremost is that the CO version is ETOPS certified. I think DL's could be, but DL would also have to add BusinessElite seats, extra galley, etc. Pretty expensive to convert.

DL 764- They could fly to Europe...DL currently uses them on ATLHNL...plenty of range. The issue there is the BusinessElite seats. I think medium term, this is in the plan. One can only hope.

 

[JFK777]

The 764 has the range & ETOPS for European flying. What has to change is the configuration. I don't know about the lavatories and Gallies but the seats in coach need more legroom and BusinessElite added. More 777 would help, Delta was supposed to get 2 in 2004, I think they were deferred. New 777's would be best but ex-UA P&W powered would help in the short term.

The 757 Delta has are P&W 2037 with less power then the CAL RR ones. From JFK they could fly to northwest Europe but they aren't ETOP certified. Another option are some of the 767-300 from the domestic fleet. The older aren't ER's but the newer ones are. They could be changed fairly quickly to international service. Delta needs more 777, they could also buy some 763ER's from UA if they liquidate. Options exist but then how many airplanes are we talking about?

 

[NWA/AMT]

TWA used to operate PW powered 757s to several European destinations from JFK, including Lisbon if I recall correctly.

The PW2037 on the 757-200 is actually a de-rated PW2040, the last two digits representing the thrust rating in thousands of pounds. This is comparable to the thrust rating for the RB211-535C and -535E4, respectively, so thrust isn't really an issue.

I would think that DL could certainly obtain and maintain 757 ETOPS certification given their previous experience and the quality of their maintenance. However, whether it would be cost effective for DL to modify their 757s to do that is another question.

 

[michael707767]

TWA used to operate PW powered 757s to several European destinations from JFK, including Lisbon if I recall correctly.

[post="196415"][/post]​

Interesting you said that. I heard Delta was looking at the TWA 757s at AA as part of a possible deal. Anyway, the new TA does in fact provide for a crew rest seat on the 757.

 

[WorldTraveler]

It is probably cheaper for DL to acquire used international aircraft now than to convert its own aircraft. Once DL completes its transformation plan, it is more likely than not that DL will be involved in some sort of merger and acquisition activity that will help to improve DL's international presence. 757s and 764s can add some presence from NYC and BOS but cannot do much more than the 763s do now. DL needs bigger, longer range aircraft like the 777 and to move into more of Asia.
Further, DL is supposedly working on a new BusinessElite product so it is not very cost effective to put something in that will be replaced within a year or two.

 

[NWA/AMT]

Interesting you said that. I heard Delta was looking at the TWA 757s at AA as part of a possible deal. Anyway, the new TA does in fact provide for a crew rest seat on the 757.

[post="196617"][/post]​

The TWA 757s were delivered in full ETOPS configuration, which would certainly be more cost effective than retrofitting aircraft that were not originally ETOPS equipped. Since they are such a small portion of the AA fleet and have a dissimilar engine type from AA's other 757s, it would be logical for them to get rid of them.

The TWA folks were justifiably proud of their 757s and I think DL would get a good deal by taking them up.

 

[Falco]

You all are forgettting about a significant difference between DAL and CAL on adding flights on the thinner routes with 757's. CAL has amuch better feed into Newark than does DAL into JFK. Also, the Rolls engine is clearly superior and CAL is adding winglets to it's 75's that will provide a much broader route structure than DAL.

 

[flyhigh]

...but DL could consider additional CVG routes as well possibly (similar to CO CLE routes). As for feed at EWR vs. JFK...with a plane that small, you don't need that much feed. That is one reason CO uses the 757...they are going to routes where there isn't much feed to be had...

 

[NWA/AMT]

Also, the Rolls engine is clearly superior and CAL is adding winglets to it's 75's that will provide a much broader route structure than DAL.

[post="197207"][/post]​

Having worked on both engine types, I would have to disagree. The differences between the two engine types would have no real effect on US-Europe ETOPS operations.

Also, Aviation Partners Boeing, the manufacturer of CAL's winglets, makes no guarantees regarding the range extension gained by installing winglets. If you look at the data for the three 737 NG models they provide info for and extrapolate from that, it is apparent that as the benefit in range would be minimal. A 5% reduction in fuel burn does not necessarily translate to a great increase in range.

 

[Falco]

There is already hard data on winglet fuel burn improvement. I saw a winglet 757 in Oslo last week. CAL assumes a 300-400 mile improvement in range. I'm pretty confident you won't see trans-atlantic 757's out of CVG. The O & D from CVG is worse than CLE. The only market with enough traffic is London and CLE-LON is right on the edge of 757 range. CVG would be further.

 

[flyhigh]

The O&D can't be that bad since DL is running LGW, CDG, FCO, AMS, FRA, and I think an MXP...CLE only has a LGW flight on a 757...all the CVG flights are 763 with MD-11's having been on some of those routes...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Don't forget that DL has added a bunch of regional jet flights to JFK recently and opened a number of new markets.

 

[JFK777]

I like the idea of 764 just because they are fairly new. Some of the 763ER's are from 1988 before Delta took over Pan Am, they were purchased because the L-1011-500 were getting old and out of production. DL did such a hidiuos job of seating in the 764, it could learn from CAL. 5 accross Biz Elite and roomy coach.

 

[PHX Flyer]

I am curious to learn if Delta ever gave any indication that they would shift B767-400 and B757 to transatlantic markets, or if this is just a pipe dream. The way I see it is that Delta has already announced their plans for Europe in 2005, namely one new daily fight from JFK to Berlin, operated by a B767-300ER. After Continental's massive expansion there are not many destinations left that would be suitable for B757 service - maybe one or two, and those are probably already on Continental's radar screen for 2006.