Negotiations........why?

[Kev3188]

Fair enough, but I could swear the copy I had had a December '05 effective date on it...

 

[700UW]

Its the RLA Section 6 process.
 
When the 30 days is up, company can impose, NW did, AMFA walked.
 
Here is an article that explains it, NW imposed when they went on strike, AMFA members finally got to vote on in December of 2005, it failed, NW still imposed it.
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/northwest-mechanics-stay-on-strike/

 

[Overspeed]

Chuck,
You don't make any sense on this one. You obviously never read the language much less understand how finances work. Spend more money just to outsource more? There is a committee that I was told during one of the local meetings that Schiable is on. One of your AMFA organizing buddies. Don't you trust him to make sure the books aren't being manipulated?

 

[Vortilon]

 
 
1. Let’s see now, for the last 40 years AMFA attempted repeated raids against the IAM and TWU yet you believe that both Unions should have stood behind them. You’ve got to be kidding
 
2. I don’t recall any Pilot group honoring a picket line unless it was their own. Eastern was an exception since Lorenzo was a threat to them as well as the IAM.
 
3. The NWA Flight Attendants were in a Seham orchestrated *independent Union and even they ignored their AMFA brethren.
 
            *An independent non AFL-CIO affiliate, the PFAA rank and file voted
            not to support the strike by the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association
 
 
“Since NWA shut the doors of its Minneapolis maintenance facility and contracted out janitorial and
cabin cleaning jobs, few expect many of the 4400 original strikers to be recalled. All 800 mechanics
who crossed picket lines, mostly AMFA members, will remain working and cannot be displaced by
strikers according to the tentative agreement. It is a tragic end to a dismal chapter of failed AMFA
leadership and strategy.
 
Most unions considered the strike ill conceived from the very beginning. AMFA had no strike fund
and, reflecting its separatist philosophy of mechanics acting alone, went on strike while the Pilots,
Flight Attendants and Machinists' Union were still negotiating under pressures of bankruptcy court
proceedings. AMFA bolted ahead of all the other unions, characteristic of their often-stated mantra
that "strength in numbers doesn't necessarily mean strength. " This was the wisdom offered by
AMFA Assistant National Director Steve MacFarlane on the eve of the August 2005 strike. He
couldn't have been more wrong.
 
Underestimating solidarity with other unions on the property was only one of AMFA's strategic
mistakes. Extremely damaging to unity with other unions was AMFA's negotiating proposal that
NWA take more concessions from IAM members and less from AMFA members. As reported by
Robert Roach Jr., IAMAW General Vice- President Transportation: "AMFA, as an institution, has
proposed and is actively advocating, that Northwest Airlines demand $150,000,000 more [from IAM
members] in concessions than the $107,000,000 Northwest has requested from our membership. "
While AMFA supporters dismiss these claims as slander, most 'unskilled' airline workers who have
been the target of AMFA's scorn since their formation in 1962, are not at all surprised by AMFA's
breach of solidarity at NWA during the 2005 summer contract negotiations. In fact, this breakdown
in solidarity is exactly what occurred only a few months earlier in an AMFA settlement with United
Airlines that directly led to 550 IAM jobs being contracted out. As a result of complex legal
proceedings between AMFA and the IAM over the jobs in question, AMFA negotiators demanded
and received from UAL financial 'credits' for this IAM job loss; thus increasing the hardship on fellow
workers, IAM members, but reducing concessions of AMFA mechanics”.

 
 
AMFA raid?  How do AMTs raid themselves?  Do you understand the meaning of the term grassroots?  Raid, now that would be synonomous with the IBT, IAM, or even the TWU. 
 
NWA, never recovered from that strike.  My brother was a tech writer at NWA, and shortly after the scabs were put in place, the tech writers were tasked with dumbing down the maintenance manuals.  The quality of these replacement workers (scabs) was "bottom of the barrel".   The fact that the scabs were blended in with Delta served to mask the underlying problem.
 
NWA could say they broke AMFA, but in the process shot their feet off.

 

[Overspeed]

Interesting read
 
The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association made a huge bet that Northwest would struggle without them and travelers would flee, forcing the airline to offer a better deal. On Day 10, AMFA National Director O.V. Delle-Femine predicted: "In a couple weeks, people are going to see the failure of this airline."
 
But Northwest followed through on months of public statements that it had lined up enough replacement workers to fly without union mechanics. Every other Northwest union kept working. Although it struggled with late flights in the days before and after the strike, it kept flying.
 
Northwest did return to the bargaining table, but only to offer a worse deal for the union. It's offer to retain 2,750 union members on the eve of the strike dropped to just 500 when negotiators met again last month.
 
The union promised a vote on that offer and then reversed itself, saying Northwest inserted language barring retaliation against mechanics who crossed the picket line.
 
"This strike's over," said aviation consultant Michael Boyd of Evergreen, Colo. "Northwest was ready for a strike. They were not playing games. They had a plan which they worked on for 18 months, and they were ready to do it."
 
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-11-02-northwest-strike_x.htm
 
And in the end even if NWA was not profitable by the time it merged with DL, Steenland lined his pockets with lots of cash at the employees expense. Especially the AMFA members. Which was part of the reasoning behind the TWU Int'ls urging that either a deal needed to be done because BK was coming and then once 1113 was started, to get the bet deal possible. NWA was one of the many examples of that during BK, employees lose (in NW/AMFA's case big) and only senior management comes out smelling like a rose.

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

1. Let’s see now, for the last 40 years AMFA attempted repeated raids against the IAM and TWU yet you believe that both Unions should have stood behind them. You’ve got to be kidding
 
2. I don’t recall any Pilot group honoring a picket line unless it was their own. Eastern was an exception since Lorenzo was a threat to them as well as the IAM.
 
3. The NWA Flight Attendants were in a Seham orchestrated *independent Union and even they ignored their AMFA brethren.
 
            *An independent non AFL-CIO affiliate, the PFAA rank and file voted
            not to support the strike by the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association
 
 
“Since NWA shut the doors of its Minneapolis maintenance facility and contracted out janitorial and
cabin cleaning jobs, few expect many of the 4400 original strikers to be recalled. All 800 mechanics
who crossed picket lines, mostly AMFA members, will remain working and cannot be displaced by
strikers according to the tentative agreement. It is a tragic end to a dismal chapter of failed AMFA
leadership and strategy.
 
Most unions considered the strike ill conceived from the very beginning. AMFA had no strike fund
and, reflecting its separatist philosophy of mechanics acting alone, went on strike while the Pilots,
Flight Attendants and Machinists' Union were still negotiating under pressures of bankruptcy court
proceedings. AMFA bolted ahead of all the other unions, characteristic of their often-stated mantra
that "strength in numbers doesn't necessarily mean strength. " This was the wisdom offered by
AMFA Assistant National Director Steve MacFarlane on the eve of the August 2005 strike. He
couldn't have been more wrong.
 
Underestimating solidarity with other unions on the property was only one of AMFA's strategic
mistakes. Extremely damaging to unity with other unions was AMFA's negotiating proposal that
NWA take more concessions from IAM members and less from AMFA members. As reported by
Robert Roach Jr., IAMAW General Vice- President Transportation: "AMFA, as an institution, has
proposed and is actively advocating, that Northwest Airlines demand $150,000,000 more [from IAM
members] in concessions than the $107,000,000 Northwest has requested from our membership. "
While AMFA supporters dismiss these claims as slander, most 'unskilled' airline workers who have
been the target of AMFA's scorn since their formation in 1962, are not at all surprised by AMFA's
breach of solidarity at NWA during the 2005 summer contract negotiations. In fact, this breakdown
in solidarity is exactly what occurred only a few months earlier in an AMFA settlement with United
Airlines that directly led to 550 IAM jobs being contracted out. As a result of complex legal
proceedings between AMFA and the IAM over the jobs in question, AMFA negotiators demanded
and received from UAL financial 'credits' for this IAM job loss; thus increasing the hardship on fellow
workers, IAM members, but reducing concessions of AMFA mechanics”.

Keep bashing the AMFA but the twu has got to be the worst union in the history of aviation. Been here 25 years and I am making the same money I did twenty years ago. That is with less sick time less IOD time less vacation increased medical costs less holidays at less pay. The twu is b the worst and can never repair the massive amount of damage they have done. They need to leave the property

 

[700UW]

So 9/11, both Gulf Wars, Jet Fuel prices and SARS, has nothing to do with it right?
 
Oh and Chapter 11 had nothing also right?

 

[Vortilon]

Interesting read
 
The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association made a huge bet that Northwest would struggle without them and travelers would flee, forcing the airline to offer a better deal. On Day 10, AMFA National Director O.V. Delle-Femine predicted: "In a couple weeks, people are going to see the failure of this airline."
 
But Northwest followed through on months of public statements that it had lined up enough replacement workers to fly without union mechanics. Every other Northwest union kept working. Although it struggled with late flights in the days before and after the strike, it kept flying.
 
Northwest did return to the bargaining table, but only to offer a worse deal for the union. It's offer to retain 2,750 union members on the eve of the strike dropped to just 500 when negotiators met again last month.
 
The union promised a vote on that offer and then reversed itself, saying Northwest inserted language barring retaliation against mechanics who crossed the picket line.
 
"This strike's over," said aviation consultant Michael Boyd of Evergreen, Colo. "Northwest was ready for a strike. They were not playing games. They had a plan which they worked on for 18 months, and they were ready to do it."
 
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-11-02-northwest-strike_x.htm
 
And in the end even if NWA was not profitable by the time it merged with DL, Steenland lined his pockets with lots of cash at the employees expense. Especially the AMFA members. Which was part of the reasoning behind the TWU Int'ls urging that either a deal needed to be done because BK was coming and then once 1113 was started, to get the bet deal possible. NWA was one of the many examples of that during BK, employees lose (in NW/AMFA's case big) and only senior management comes out smelling like a rose.

 Yeah, about that, I don't recall anybody from the TWU international taking a hit.  In fact, quite the opposte.  No shared sacrifice.  The phrase "out of touch" would be a good desciption of the TWU international. 

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Chuck,
You don't make any sense on this one. You obviously never read the language much less understand how finances work. Spend more money just to outsource more? There is a committee that I was told during one of the local meetings that Schiable is on. One of your AMFA organizing buddies. Don't you trust him to make sure the books aren't being manipulated?

the contract language ties the hands of the committee, it is the language of the contract that governs everything. so yes if the company spends more they can outsource more.  didn't the TWU explain that when telling you to vote "yes"

 

[Vortilon]

Interesting read
 
The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association made a huge bet that Northwest would struggle without them and travelers would flee, forcing the airline to offer a better deal. On Day 10, AMFA National Director O.V. Delle-Femine predicted: "In a couple weeks, people are going to see the failure of this airline."
 
But Northwest followed through on months of public statements that it had lined up enough replacement workers to fly without union mechanics. Every other Northwest union kept working. Although it struggled with late flights in the days before and after the strike, it kept flying.
 
Northwest did return to the bargaining table, but only to offer a worse deal for the union. It's offer to retain 2,750 union members on the eve of the strike dropped to just 500 when negotiators met again last month.
 
The union promised a vote on that offer and then reversed itself, saying Northwest inserted language barring retaliation against mechanics who crossed the picket line.
 
"This strike's over," said aviation consultant Michael Boyd of Evergreen, Colo. "Northwest was ready for a strike. They were not playing games. They had a plan which they worked on for 18 months, and they were ready to do it."
 
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-11-02-northwest-strike_x.htm
 
And in the end even if NWA was not profitable by the time it merged with DL, Steenland lined his pockets with lots of cash at the employees expense. Especially the AMFA members. Which was part of the reasoning behind the TWU Int'ls urging that either a deal needed to be done because BK was coming and then once 1113 was started, to get the bet deal possible. NWA was one of the many examples of that during BK, employees lose (in NW/AMFA's case big) and only senior management comes out smelling like a rose.

 
Why are you so desperate to make excuses for the TWU?  WTF, I have never seen seen such devotion for an organization that has completely screwed over a work group that they were supposedly a part of. 
 
Regarding the NWA fuster cluck, and related industry hard times - I do not recall any TWU international types making any sacrifices.  In fact, it was quite the opposite - they continued to receive pay raises all throughout.  Tell us to lower our expectations, and then accept double digit pay raises.  Hypocritical much?  Not the kind of leadership I could support.

 

[swamt]

 
 
1. Let’s see now, for the last 40 years AMFA attempted repeated raids against the IAM and TWU yet you believe that both Unions should have stood behind them. You’ve got to be kidding
 
2. I don’t recall any Pilot group honoring a picket line unless it was their own. Eastern was an exception since Lorenzo was a threat to them as well as the IAM.
 
3. The NWA Flight Attendants were in a Seham orchestrated *independent Union and even they ignored their AMFA brethren.
 
            *An independent non AFL-CIO affiliate, the PFAA rank and file voted
            not to support the strike by the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association
 
 
“Since NWA shut the doors of its Minneapolis maintenance facility and contracted out janitorial and
cabin cleaning jobs, few expect many of the 4400 original strikers to be recalled. All 800 mechanics
who crossed picket lines, mostly AMFA members, will remain working and cannot be displaced by
strikers according to the tentative agreement. It is a tragic end to a dismal chapter of failed AMFA
leadership and strategy.
 
Most unions considered the strike ill conceived from the very beginning. AMFA had no strike fund
and, reflecting its separatist philosophy of mechanics acting alone, went on strike while the Pilots,
Flight Attendants and Machinists' Union were still negotiating under pressures of bankruptcy court
proceedings. AMFA bolted ahead of all the other unions, characteristic of their often-stated mantra
that "strength in numbers doesn't necessarily mean strength. " This was the wisdom offered by
AMFA Assistant National Director Steve MacFarlane on the eve of the August 2005 strike. He
couldn't have been more wrong.
 
Underestimating solidarity with other unions on the property was only one of AMFA's strategic
mistakes. Extremely damaging to unity with other unions was AMFA's negotiating proposal that
NWA take more concessions from IAM members and less from AMFA members. As reported by
Robert Roach Jr., IAMAW General Vice- President Transportation: "AMFA, as an institution, has
proposed and is actively advocating, that Northwest Airlines demand $150,000,000 more [from IAM
members] in concessions than the $107,000,000 Northwest has requested from our membership. "
While AMFA supporters dismiss these claims as slander, most 'unskilled' airline workers who have
been the target of AMFA's scorn since their formation in 1962, are not at all surprised by AMFA's
breach of solidarity at NWA during the 2005 summer contract negotiations. In fact, this breakdown
in solidarity is exactly what occurred only a few months earlier in an AMFA settlement with United
Airlines that directly led to 550 IAM jobs being contracted out. As a result of complex legal
proceedings between AMFA and the IAM over the jobs in question, AMFA negotiators demanded
and received from UAL financial 'credits' for this IAM job loss; thus increasing the hardship on fellow
workers, IAM members, but reducing concessions of AMFA mechanics”.

So everything I posted in post #198 is still true and your previous post was all false.  Way to avoid the facts that YOU started with...

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Been here 25 years and I am making the same money I did twenty years ago. 

No, you are making much much less than 20 years ago.
 

That is with less sick time less IOD time less vacation increased medical costs less holidays at less pay. 

There is that.
 
 
 
There is also adjusting for inflation.
 
No sir, you are making much much less.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

So 9/11, 

9/11 was almost 14 years ago.
 
American Airlines has purchased a lot of new aircraft.
 
American Airlines has posted record profits.
 
What American Airlines has NOT done is share that success with their employees.

 

[AANOTOK]

Hey Doug, fleet and mechanics had something called the Association shoved down their throat. Both at the International and member levels, watch the mess. And now your Pilots are in shambles...can I have my 4% before you take it back??

 

[Buck]

Mr. Moderator, could you rename this blog  to Negotiations.....Why don't we talk about NWA and AMFA?