Negotiations........why?

[1AA]

stop making this an AMFA debate and defend the TWU and the association and how great
they have done for our profession and what they will do in the JCBA to provide us with an industry leading contract with no concessions.  lets start with that shall we?

Chuck I believe there is nothing more that can be said on what good the twu has done for us at AA especially since deregulation. All the pro twu guys are left with is blaming AMFA, other unions and airlines. JCBA talks have not started and we do not even know what the company is offering. The association does not even know where to start with both airlines and unions way of conducting business. How do you bring all this together and have a JCBA to vote on? Did I say vote? Isn't that what they swore up and down we would do on the association? Proof or fact the twu and iam have lied to us and they will continue to do so as long as they are on the property representing the M&E group. I can't see many more creditable posts made on this topic.

 

[Overspeed]

Yes let's not let this be an AMFA debate. AMFA's dead at AA.
 
The Association has to be given a chance because we don't know if it will work unless we all collective pull together and get involved.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

we heard that battle cry "give them  a chance"   like Gerad arpey and jim little where did that get us?
the famous Burchette  help the company fill their pockets so we can reach in and grab ours!
the famous Jim Little "we live to fight another day"Lets not forget Bobby Gless "we have to lower our expectations"
 
these are only a few but you get the drift of why there is no faith in the TWU International and our contract

 

[Overspeed]

And the AMFA drive is still dead Chuck. The Association is here.

 

[Buck]

And the AMFA drive is still dead Chuck. The Association is here.

The sad part is for this membership the Association does not even have to perform.....

 

[Realityck]

 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT
 
AMFA hasn't attempted "raids" - AMFA has no paid organizers - the campaigns you mention were grassroots efforts of Mechanics & Related who did and continue to take issue with the lack of democracy and accountability in unions like the IAM, TWU etc.
 
And "YES" they should expect the IAM and TWU to stand behind them when going up against the company.  There will always be inter union politics - the IAM TWU and all the others that crossed the line obviously forgot that.  Go ahead and sling crap at each other all day long, but when a picket line goes up - YOU DO NOT CROSS.
 
 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT
 
Less than 2 minutes and a good search engine -
UPS Pilots Honor Teamster Canada Strike
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ups-pilots-honor-teamster-canada-strike-75519167.html
 
 
 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT (and you basically contradicting your own post)
 
While PFAA was just as guilty for crossing the line they at least put the matter to a vote of their respective membership, hence they obviously took the matter seriously and were not ignoring AMFA.
 
Did the IAM or the TWU poll their memberships?  No
 
As for PFAA's formation - Seham "orchestrated" nothing - he may have provided counsel but he most certainly didn't form the union.
 
Again - 2 minutes and a good search engine
Teamsters Denounce Raid on Northwest Flight Attendants
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/teamsters-denounce-raid-on-northwest-flight-attendants-77914317.html

"...The PFAA was formed by a group of dissident union members who have been unsuccessful in their attempts to gain Local 2000 office..."
I'm just curious how many more time you're going to blow the dust off this piece - you or one of the other TWU sycophants seems to post it at least once a year - hate AMFA all you like but at least try and come up with  something original once in awhile.

 
 

 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT
 
AMFA hasn't attempted "raids" - AMFA has no paid organizers - the campaigns you mention were grassroots efforts of Mechanics & Related who did and continue to take issue with the lack of democracy and accountability in unions like the IAM, TWU etc.
 
And "YES" they should expect the IAM and TWU to stand behind them when going up against the company.  There will always be inter union politics - the IAM TWU and all the others that crossed the line obviously forgot that.  Go ahead and sling crap at each other all day long, but when a picket line goes up - YOU DO NOT CROSS.
 
 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT
 
Less than 2 minutes and a good search engine -
UPS Pilots Honor Teamster Canada Strike
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ups-pilots-honor-teamster-canada-strike-75519167.html
 
 
 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT (and you basically contradicting your own post)
 
While PFAA was just as guilty for crossing the line they at least put the matter to a vote of their respective membership, hence they obviously took the matter seriously and were not ignoring AMFA.
 
Did the IAM or the TWU poll their memberships?  No
 
As for PFAA's formation - Seham "orchestrated" nothing - he may have provided counsel but he most certainly didn't form the union.
 
Again - 2 minutes and a good search engine
Teamsters Denounce Raid on Northwest Flight Attendants
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/teamsters-denounce-raid-on-northwest-flight-attendants-77914317.html

"...The PFAA was formed by a group of dissident union members who have been unsuccessful in their attempts to gain Local 2000 office..."
I'm just curious how many more time you're going to blow the dust off this piece - you or one of the other TWU sycophants seems to post it at least once a year - hate AMFA all you like but at least try and come up with  something original once in awhile.

 
 
 
1. Let’s see now, for the last 40 years AMFA attempted repeated raids against the IAM and TWU yet you believe that both Unions should have stood behind them.
 
                        TRUE – Based on written record         
 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT
 
AMFA hasn't attempted "raids" - AMFA has no paid organizers - the campaigns you mention were grassroots efforts of Mechanics & Related who did and continue to take issue with the lack of democracy and accountability in unions like the IAM, TWU etc.
 
All Labor Union’s in the Airline Industry call what AMFA has been trying for more than 40 years “RAIDING”. You can attempt to disguise a pig by putting lipstick on it, but it’s still a pig.
 
 
And "YES" they should expect the IAM and TWU to stand behind them when going up against the company.  There will always be inter union politics - the IAM TWU and all the others that crossed the line obviously forgot that.  Go ahead and sling crap at each other all day long, but when a picket line goes up - YOU DO NOT CROSS.
 
So in your mind it’s perfectly legitimate for AMFA to attempt to throw IAM members under the bus in negotiations by telling management to increase IAM concessions at NWA so they can be reduced for AMFA members?  How could anyone in their right mind believe that was a rational expectation!
 
 
2. I don’t recall any Pilot group honoring a picket line unless it was their own. Eastern was an exception since Lorenzo was a threat to them as well as the IAM.
 
                        TRUE – Based on historical record
 
 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT
 
Less than 2 minutes and a good search engine -
UPS Pilots Honor Teamster Canada Strike
http://www.prnewswir...e-75519167.htmlhttp://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ups-pilots-honor-teamster-canada-strike-75519167.html
 
 
My statement was based on Airline Pilot Union activities in the United States, not
Foreign Countries.
 
 
3. The NWA Flight Attendants were in a Seham orchestrated *independent Union and even they ignored their AMFA brethren.
 
            *An independent non AFL-CIOhttp://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ih/9781270140764 affiliate, the PFAA rank and file voted
            not to support the strike by the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association
 
                        TRUE:
 
 
FALSE - Based on Actual FACT (and you basically contradicting your own post)
 
While PFAA was just as guilty for crossing the line they at least put the matter to a vote of their respective membership, hence they obviously took the matter seriously and were not ignoring AMFA.
 
Did the IAM or the TWU poll their memberships?  No
 
As for PFAA's formation - Seham "orchestrated" nothing - he may have provided counsel but he most certainly didn't form the union.
 
Again - 2 minutes and a good search engine
Teamsters Denounce Raid on Northwest Flight Attendants
http://www.prnewswir...s-77914317.htmlhttp://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...-on-northwest-flight-attendants-77914317.html
 
"...The PFAA was formed by a group of dissident union members who have been unsuccessful in their attempts to gain Local 2000 office..."
 
 
The difference which should be obvious is AMFA never attempting to raid the Teamsters, only other Airline Unions. 

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

All Labor Union’s in the Airline Industry call what AMFA has been trying for more than 40 years “RAIDING”. You can attempt to disguise a pig by putting lipstick on it, but it’s still a pig.
 
 

 
Your sad tired argument for AMFA "raiding" is the PIG in desperate need of some lipstick - Only industrial union sheep turn an obvious blind eye to the differences in organizing and cling to such ridiculous arguments, especially when AA/US has recently provided textbook examples. Teamsters at AA & US - AMFA at AA   You won't see the difference because it doesn't fit your narrative. 
 
 
 

So in your mind it’s perfectly legitimate for AMFA to attempt to throw IAM members under the bus in negotiations by telling management to increase IAM concessions at NWA so they can be reduced for AMFA members?  How could anyone in their right mind believe that was a rational expectation!
 

 
 I have heard this fanciful charge made several times before and I challenged those making it to provide ACTUAL PROOF to the allegations which none have - The IAM has tried to use this as an excuse without providing proof - wheres yours? PROVE IT!

 

 
My statement was based on Airline Pilot Union activities in the United States, not
Foreign Countries.
 
 

 
Another sad little dodge - You said "any pilot group", and Its clear you have no real knowledge of what you're talking about.
 

In Solidarity with Teamsters UPS Pilots Threaten Worldwide Shutdown of UPS
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/in-solidarity-with-teamsters-ups-pilots-threaten-worldwide-shutdown-of-ups-75538282.html
 
 
 

The difference which should be obvious is AMFA never attempting to raid the Teamsters, only other Airline Unions. 
 

 
What does that have to do with your LIE that PFAA ignored AMFA, and your LIE that Seham "orchestrated" PFAA?
 
However, since you brought it up...

AMFA members have "attempted" organizing on SWA - and won.
 
AMFA members have "attempted" organizing on Horizon - and lost
 
AMFA would be members are "attempting" organizing on United - in progress
 
All are or were teamster mechanic groups
 
 
While your comment above has nothing to do with the subject of PFAA, it does illustrate - yet again - you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Overspeed]

I agree with Chuck on the AMFA versus TWU debate. It's over. AMFA organizing at AA/US is dead right now. The issue at hand is when are we going to see a JCBA at the New AA? Before that can happen our Association reps need to resolve the internal differences between CBAs and build a joint ask/proposal to present to AA. We can complain, bring up how we got screwed before, and our expectation for the future based on our experience and feelings over and over again and it gets us where?

 

[chilokie1]

I agree with Chuck on the AMFA versus TWU debate. It's over. AMFA organizing at AA/US is dead right now. The issue at hand is when are we going to see a JCBA at the New AA? Before that can happen our Association reps need to resolve the internal differences between CBAs and build a joint ask/proposal to present to AA. We can complain, bring up how we got screwed before, and our expectation for the future based on our experience and feelings over and over again and it gets us where?

How anybody can talk about this seamless transition that you speak of with a strait face is ridiculous. 
The association will be run by the IAM during the JCBA process, they will be negotiating with the same
USAir team that has the same view of how the maintenance scope should be set up.
I can already see the shocked look on the faces of the ill-informed TWU supporters in Tulsa that they
will be  asked to support a contract that will for all intent and purposes terminate their employment in Tulsa.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

I agree with Chuck on the AMFA versus TWU debate. It's over. AMFA organizing at AA/US is dead right now. The issue at hand is when are we going to see a JCBA at the New AA? Before that can happen our Association reps need to resolve the internal differences between CBAs and build a joint ask/proposal to present to AA. We can complain, bring up how we got screwed before, and our expectation for the future based on our experience and feelings over and over again and it gets us where?

nice spin overpsun but not quite.    history of the TWU has repeated itself every concessionary contract and this JCBA will be no different.  Yes we can complain about being screwed by the TWU ATD as they have not accepted responsibility for destroying our careers!  We were misinformed every concessionary contract and the TWU ATD has proven they are powerless in negotiations nothing more than promises and dissappointment.  We have nothing to show other than leading the industry in concessions and company laden contract language.  Where has it gotten us believing in the TWU ATD and their false promises......right to the bottom of the industry and now we are suppose to believe again.....not a chance........get ready for the concessions again!!!!!

 

[700UW]

JCBA will be no different?

Are you being Ms Cleo?

You have no idea what will happen, the IAM isnt going to be bringing back concessions, this is the time for the PMUS side to get back what was lost in two chapter 11 cases and bring PMAA along for the ride.
 
You havent been through anything, compared to the PMUS Chapter 22 cases.
 
So if you know whats going to happen, can you please tell me the PowerBall winning numbers?

And if you can see the future, why are you working, you should have made a fortune in Vegas, and other places?

 

[Overspeed]

Chuck,
I see you can't learn and let go of the past. Good thing is that even though you have every right to speak up, you aren't in the committee and cooler heads will prevail when it comes to a JCBA. There will always be compromises as there should be in some cases because that's the way life is. I believe a good but not perfect JCBA will happen with or without your support and in spite of your continued loathing.
 
AMFA's dead at the new AA Chuck for the foreseeable future.

 

[Rogallo]

Not Perfect JCBA.  Why not?

 
And you're quite the definition of loathing too!

 

[MetalMover]

 
You have no idea what will happen, the IAM isnt going to be bringing back concessions, this is the time for the PMUS side to get back what was lost in two chapter 11 cases and bring PMAA along for the ride.
 
You havent been through anything, compared to the PMUS Chapter 22 cases.
 
So if you know whats going to happen, can you please tell me the PowerBall winning numbers?
And if you can see the future, why are you working, you should have made a fortune in Vegas, and other places?

So Chuck has no idea what will happen but YOU DO????????????????????

 

[MetalMover]

Chuck,
I see you can't learn and let go of the past. Good thing is that even though you have every right to speak up, you aren't in the committee and cooler heads will prevail when it comes to a JCBA. There will always be compromises as there should be in some cases because that's the way life is. I believe a good but not perfect JCBA will happen with or without your support and in spite of your continued loathing.
 
AMFA's dead at the new AA Chuck for the foreseeable future.

I guess you don't feel the employees of AA have given enough concessions? We have done more than COMPROMISE...We've been COMPROMISED!
 
What compromises are you willing to make on behalf of the membership?