New 18% Paycut For Pilots
- Thread starter luvthe9
- Start date
luvthe9-
Your number is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY WRONG. Let me tell you where you got your number from.
A few months ago when oil prices weren't so high, Tilton and the boys wanted all of labor to take a 500M hit, shared equally. If you look at UAL's total labor costs, it would have taken everyone on the property to give up 13% of their pay in order to meet that 500M cut. But not all of the cut will be straight pay, as work rules and insurance costs, for example, will take the brunt of some of that 500M.
Now it's a 750M cut, which approximates about a 18-19% across the board cut. That's where you're getting that number, and since our contract will also be hit with other stuff besides gross pay, that pay cut will more than likely be less than 18-19%. We'll know in about a week possibly.
Your number is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY WRONG. Let me tell you where you got your number from.
A few months ago when oil prices weren't so high, Tilton and the boys wanted all of labor to take a 500M hit, shared equally. If you look at UAL's total labor costs, it would have taken everyone on the property to give up 13% of their pay in order to meet that 500M cut. But not all of the cut will be straight pay, as work rules and insurance costs, for example, will take the brunt of some of that 500M.
Now it's a 750M cut, which approximates about a 18-19% across the board cut. That's where you're getting that number, and since our contract will also be hit with other stuff besides gross pay, that pay cut will more than likely be less than 18-19%. We'll know in about a week possibly.
Really? I count at least a 14% pay cut in the F/A deal, with the company's option to make it even more. And that doesn't even count gutting most of our work rules.ualdriver said:
Are you saying the pilots ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY won't take an 18% pay hit?
JungleClone
Senior
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2004
- Messages
- 338
- Reaction score
- 0
Well, since the pilots on average make more than all but upper level management and executives, I think it's safe to say their paycut will be the largest of all labor groups AND also include dramatic work rule/productivity changes.
767jetz
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
- Messages
- 3,286
- Reaction score
- 2,779
JungleClone said:
If the pilots take a smaller percent cut (say 10%) it will still be a bigger pay cut than anyone else. So for those of you who love to see the pilots take one for the team, rest assured we will shell out more than most. Even if the percent is lower. :down:
As for the speculation surrounding this subject, that's all it is. The official word from ALPA is that the "ask" from the company is being reviewed by the MEC and when we negotiate a final cut, it will be made public.
I remind any pilots here not to get dragged into a speculative debate. Let each group negotiate for themselves. And let the outsiders suck wind as they scramble for competitive morsles of information. Info made available to "members only" should stay that way for our own good. It does no one any good to feed the rumor mill. As our elected officials continue to remind us, the only source of accurate info is the MEC and union officers. Stay in touch with them and attend your local meetings.
Frats,
767jetz
IMO there IS a light at the end of this tunnel.
firstamendment
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2003
- Messages
- 1,348
- Reaction score
- 0
My God, what are they doing to you guys, copying our blue print? I guess the gods figure if a merging won't work, making us all feel miserable the same will.
I get more baffled every day!!
We all need to finally put all our past US/UAL bitterness behind and unite in some positive way because we are all getting scr##ed and so far no lube as been provided. And we at US can tell you it hurts like hell.
Good luck!!
I get more baffled every day!!
We all need to finally put all our past US/UAL bitterness behind and unite in some positive way because we are all getting scr##ed and so far no lube as been provided. And we at US can tell you it hurts like hell.
Good luck!!
Well herkav8r, if you don't believe me, let's sit and wait. IF ALPA's proposal is nothing but a straight pay cut for everyone, then the math says it will be around 18%. If EVERYONE'S cuts were just pay it would have been around 18% across the board. However, since this round will include pay and work rules, obviously the work rules will have some value. And since these work rules will have some value, that will decrease the % of the amount of the pay cut that we will have to take, just like it did for every other employee group. Like jetz says the ALPA people haven't released the details of the contract, but we know what the dollar value is (25% of 750M), and the numbers don't work if it's 18% across the board AND additional work rules.
Bear96:
I'm looking at AFA's contract proposal right now. I see a 6.2% pay cut under "compensation" with an additional 4% until the company exits bankruptcy, with 2% raises thereafter. I also see MAYBE an additional 4% if required by DIP covenants but ONLY for 6 months. I think the IAM has the same thing. So I think you're "puffing" a little by saying it's 14% for you guys. It's really 10.2% until the company exits bankruptcy. Then it's only 6.2% assuming the company meets its covenants, which it has in the past. As far as work rules go, EVERYONE'S are taking HUGE SUBSTANTIAL hits if they haven't already, so I understand your pain.
I also loved the AFA's letter to you guys. Sounds like they're going to go to the mat for you guys. Lots of bravado for AFA member consumption.
Bear96:
I'm looking at AFA's contract proposal right now. I see a 6.2% pay cut under "compensation" with an additional 4% until the company exits bankruptcy, with 2% raises thereafter. I also see MAYBE an additional 4% if required by DIP covenants but ONLY for 6 months. I think the IAM has the same thing. So I think you're "puffing" a little by saying it's 14% for you guys. It's really 10.2% until the company exits bankruptcy. Then it's only 6.2% assuming the company meets its covenants, which it has in the past. As far as work rules go, EVERYONE'S are taking HUGE SUBSTANTIAL hits if they haven't already, so I understand your pain.
I also loved the AFA's letter to you guys. Sounds like they're going to go to the mat for you guys. Lots of bravado for AFA member consumption.
Oops you're right. I was adding 6.2% plus 4% plus 4%. Now that I reread it I see one of the 4%s is BEFORE exit from BK, and one is AFTER, not both at the same time. My bad.ualdriver said:
But, did you notice the bit about "the Company may implement an additional, temporary wage reduction to ensure that the full savings contemplated by this proposal are achieved for 2005." Think they won't take advantage of that in any way possible too?
Did you miss the news last week (maybe two weeks ago now) that UAL is not expecting to meet the covenants starting next quarter?
AFA bravado for member consumption, or ALPA rolling over on its back and spreading its legs and giving up whatever management wants without a whimper behind closed doors, it's all the same; they'll get what they want one way or the other.
Fortunately it won't affect me anymore.
ALPA is not rolling over. They just don't fight their battles in public : )
Yes, I saw that they might not make their 4th Qtr DIP covenants. However, I also read that these pay cuts will take place next year, mid-January if I'm not mistaken. Hence, there may or may not be a direct correlation between making our 4th Qtr DIP requirement and what happens the first 2 quarters of '05 and beyond.
I hope that they don't have to "take advantage" of that 4%. If they do, I would imagine the company would be in big trouble. If they cut another 2B as Tilton states and we STILL can't make money next year, it probably won't matter if he invokes that 4% clause or not : )
Yes, I saw that they might not make their 4th Qtr DIP covenants. However, I also read that these pay cuts will take place next year, mid-January if I'm not mistaken. Hence, there may or may not be a direct correlation between making our 4th Qtr DIP requirement and what happens the first 2 quarters of '05 and beyond.
I hope that they don't have to "take advantage" of that 4%. If they do, I would imagine the company would be in big trouble. If they cut another 2B as Tilton states and we STILL can't make money next year, it probably won't matter if he invokes that 4% clause or not : )
spacewaitress
Senior
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Messages
- 468
- Reaction score
- 0
So where are you going Bear? Or are you already there?Bear96 said:
