New Open Replacement (AVBL) 2000-2999

[czerny]

With all due respect to everyone, senior and junior, when junior fas start quitting because they can't preplot way in advance, max out, and not have to commute back and forth or live in a little corner in LGA ops, it WILL affect the quality of life for those senior to them. Guess what, the next group of fas up on the seniority ladder will SLIDE back down to RSV or get reassigned.

What THB doesn't realize is, if you willingly give away provisions of the contract in a desperate attempt to save the pension, you will eventually run out of items to sacrifice, and all you have left to negotiate is the pension.

I found the term used on the latest APFA hotline very offensive...."without punishing juniority too much..."

Yes, you are right Jim, as far as APFA is concerned, the juniors are being "punished" and there's only so much one can take. As one commuter lamented to me this past Monday while waiting around to get on a flight to JFK/LGA/EWR from DCA, "sometimes you wonder if it's all worth it...running around trying to get to work only to have no paycheck cos I spent it all on ID90s and Zed fares."

Byron.

 

[jimntx]

I don't know how old you are and whether you will ever get to the point where you can bid a decent line and then drop the trips, but that is one of the few good things left about this job. I have had a situation at home where I NEED to be here and not at work,thank goodness I have the opportunity to do so.
I understand some bitterness at Senior Mama's taking advantage of their situation, but please remember someday it may be you. You will have paid your dues and hopefully be able to reap some rewards.

I have no problem with someone in your situation dropping their trips. I have a problem with people who want to be (or rather hold the title/benefits of) a flight attendant, but they just can't see themselves working on airplanes that have passengers on them.

And, out in the real world there's no such thing as "entitlements" or "paying your dues." The only thing coming to work for 30 years entitles you to is coming to work for 31 years or a retirement whichever you want. Try to imagine if you worked for IBM, or GE, or Boeing, and after 30 years, you just called up your boss and said, "I'm not going to be coming to work anymore. Oh, you have to keep my office and cubicle just as it is, and you can't promote anyone into my position, and I'll come in for 2 days once a year and prove that I can still type on the computer, but keep the paycheck going to my bank and make sure that my insurance is current. No I'm not retiring. I've just EARNED the right not to come to work."

And, by the way. No I will not live long enough to bid one of those lines. I turned 61 in March. This is my 5th career.

Again, no one earns the right to not come to work. This is not France. As I said earlier, drawing a check and benefits without working is called RETIREMENT.

By the way, I agree with Czerny. I have a strong feeling that the Law of Unintended Consequences is going to kick in big time this year. This 2000 series line is nothing more than reserve in disguise. So, I get to plot my own trips a whole 24 hours in advance. Whee doggie! There is nothing in open time by then except minimum time turns. And, I bet the crowd on Useless Blvd. will have no problem whatsover with the company creating those lines with 1-3 days on and 1-2 days off all month long.

Those of us who commute will simply have to stay in base all month, just like reserve. They can call it whatever they want, but for those of us who will be stuck with it, it will still be reserve.

APFA has once again sold out the junior people. I made the mistake of voting for THB last time. Won't happen again. As the old saying goes..Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[meechy36]

I have no problem with someone in your situation dropping their trips. I have a problem with people who want to be (or rather hold the title/benefits of) a flight attendant, but they just can't see themselves working on airplanes that have passengers on them.

And, out in the real world there's no such thing as "entitlements" or "paying your dues." The only thing coming to work for 30 years entitles you to is coming to work for 31 years or a retirement whichever you want. Try to imagine if you worked for IBM, or GE, or Boeing, and after 30 years, you just called up your boss and said, "I'm not going to be coming to work anymore. Oh, you have to keep my office and cubicle just as it is, and you can't promote anyone into my position, and I'll come in for 2 days once a year and prove that I can still type on the computer, but keep the paycheck going to my bank and make sure that my insurance is current. No I'm not retiring. I've just EARNED the right not to come to work."

And, by the way. No I will not live long enough to bid one of those lines. I turned 61 in March. This is my 5th career.

Again, no one earns the right to not come to work. This is not France. As I said earlier, drawing a check and benefits without working is called RETIREMENT.

By the way, I agree with Czerny. I have a strong feeling that the Law of Unintended Consequences is going to kick in big time this year. This 2000 series line is nothing more than reserve in disguise. So, I get to plot my own trips a whole 24 hours in advance. Whee doggie! There is nothing in open time by then except minimum time turns. And, I bet the crowd on Useless Blvd. will have no problem whatsover with the company creating those lines with 1-3 days on and 1-2 days off all month long.

Those of us who commute will simply have to stay in base all month, just like reserve. They can call it whatever they want, but for those of us who will be stuck with it, it will still be reserve.

APFA has once again sold out the junior people. I made the mistake of voting for THB last time. Won't happen again. As the old saying goes..Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

jim,

I for one am going to bid this, for me it works, even when I'm on AVAIL I plot only the day in advance anyhow. As for the senior people working as much or as little as they want, I say more power to them, yes I feel they earned it. I am a 97 hire and know that I will never be senior as I'm 45.

You seem to have a really big problem with the senior's as most posts are how little they work, so what? That's the way the system is designed. I remember years ago when we were getting ready for a TA and one of the things was should new hires go on RSV one on one off for 5 years or straight reserve until they could hold a line and the people who were willing to throw the new hires under the bus were the junior ones who figured it would push them off of RSV sooner, I didn't agree since I thought one off one on for 3 years sucked and even now one on 3 off still sucks but it would have been ok for the most junior to suck it up because they knew what they were getting into when the got hired. Well, when I got hired I knew there were more than a few people here just for the benefits and as far as I'm concerned that IS one of the benefits of the job.

mikeBOS

 

[jimntx]

jim,
.

You seem to have a really big problem with the senior's as most posts are how little they work, so what? That's the way the system is designed. mikeBOS

Did it ever occur to you that if the system was designed differently, you might not have had to take such a deep cut in pay and benefits during the 2003 concessions? You. not the company, are paying for those people to not work. You are also assuring that they will have a pension while at the same time jeopardizing your own.

I don't care how many years the "system" has been in place, or what's it's history is. It's still wrong. No wonder the airline business is in the mess it is in.

The economic foundation of this country is based on the simple concept of x numbers of hours worked = y amount of pay. Not amount of pay = how much you USED to work. If people do not want to work, they should retire. End of discussion.

And, if the pension is not sufficient to live on, then they should have been working more in the past years and saving some of it.

No pension plan nor Social Security was ever intended to be a person's sole source of income in retirement. If you have made no plans for retirement and not saved anything for it, then plan to work for a really long time. But, work. Don't scam the system to get paid while being totally non-productive.

 

[Nor'Easta]

Did it ever occur to you that if the system was designed differently, you might not have had to take such a deep cut in pay and benefits during the 2003 concessions? You. not the company, are paying for those people to not work. You are also assuring that they will have a pension while at the same time jeopardizing your own.

I don't care how many years the "system" has been in place, or what's it's history is. It's still wrong. No wonder the airline business is in the mess it is in.

The economic foundation of this country is based on the simple concept of x numbers of hours worked = y amount of pay. Not amount of pay = how much you USED to work. If people do not want to work, they should retire. End of discussion.

And, if the pension is not sufficient to live on, then they should have been working more in the past years and saving some of it.

No pension plan nor Social Security was ever intended to be a person's sole source of income in retirement. If you have made no plans for retirement and not saved anything for it, then plan to work for a really long time. But, work. Don't scam the system to get paid while being totally non-productive.

Sounds like it's time for jimntx to hang it up. You are the most bitter person on this board. Get a life!

 

[Skymess]

With all due respect to everyone, senior and junior, when junior fas start quitting because they can't preplot way in advance, max out, and not have to commute back and forth or live in a little corner in LGA ops, it WILL affect the quality of life for those senior to them. Guess what, the next group of fas up on the seniority ladder will SLIDE back down to RSV or get reassigned.

What THB doesn't realize is, if you willingly give away provisions of the contract in a desperate attempt to save the pension, you will eventually run out of items to sacrifice, and all you have left to negotiate is the pension.

I found the term used on the latest APFA hotline very offensive...."without punishing juniority too much..."

Byron

Byron,

AVBL is not contractual. I'm no APFA flag waver. Lately, that is. Once upon a time, before we got sold down the river by them, I was.

That being said, they were between a rock and a hard place and they did what they thought needed to be done.

Either they made a new agreement, putting more restrictions on AVBL, or the reserve list would go up. There were no other options. Period. The company had us by the short hairs.

The test could fail, or there could be people who don't care because they are going to fly their trips anyway.

I was told that there would only be 15-20 people at JFK who would hold the 2000 lines. System wide the number is 200 total.

Let's just wait and see how it pans out before going on the rampage.

 

[jimntx]

Sounds like Nor'Easta has a nose problem. His/her's is so long it keeps sticking in other people's business. And, I love how you assume that I am bitter just because I don't agree with you. Therefore I MUST be bitter. Simplistic, juvenile (but typical flight attendant) thinking on your part. Well, now that your mind is made up, for God's sake, don't let facts confuse you.

 

[jimntx]

Either they made a new agreement, putting more restrictions on AVBL, or the reserve list would go up. There were no other options. Period. The company had us by the short hairs.

And, once again, here is the crux of the matter. The ONLY reason the APFA decided to care about the elimination of AVBL was the bolded statement above.

I was told that there would only be 15-20 people at JFK who would hold the 2000 lines. System wide the number is 200 total.

Yeah, that's what you were told. How many times have you been told things by the company and/or the APFA that turned out not to be true in practice?

Let's just wait and see how it pans out before going on the rampage.

The voice of reason spoken by someone who doesn't have a chance in heck of being one of those 15 or 20 people; so, what's the big deal?

 

[Skymess]

And, once again, here is the crux of the matter. The ONLY reason the APFA decided to care about the elimination of AVBL was the bolded statement above.
Yeah, that's what you were told. How many times have you been told things by the company and/or the APFA that turned out not to be true in practice?
The voice of reason spoken by someone who doesn't have a chance in heck of being one of those 15 or 20 people; so, what's the big deal?

Jim,

You can beat your head against the wall all day long but the results are going to be the same.

I do feel that Tommie angles most of her energy towards improving senior people's lives at work. With this particular situation, though, I don't think it was just geared for senior people. Most of us would have been more bent out of shape if they just let it go and let the reserve list climb.

Maybe you should try switching your base to LGA where you could hold better stuff or even JFK where you would have a nicer work life even if you did wind up being on 2000. Commuting is a b*tch but it beats working trips that stink and ruining the quality of your home life as well.

Whatever the case, other than quitting, there are ways to make this job work for you.

 

[jimntx]

Jim,

You can beat your head against the wall all day long but the results are going to be the same.

I do feel that Tommie angles most of her energy towards improving senior people's lives at work. With this particular situation, though, I don't think it was just geared for senior people. Most of us would have been more bent out of shape if they just let it go and let the reserve list climb.

Maybe you should try switching your base to LGA where you could hold better stuff or even JFK where you would have a nicer work life even if you did wind up being on 2000. Commuting is a b*tch but it beats working trips that stink and ruining the quality of your home life as well.

Whatever the case, other than quitting, there are ways to make this job work for you.

Yes, the results are always the same. The junior people get screwed. And, everyone who isn't subject to the screwing just says, "Well that's the way it is. And, some day you'll get to drop all your quals that would require that you actually show up to work."

Now, as a matter of fact, I probably will NOT be subject to a 2000 series line. However, I don't take the attitude that if it doesn't affect me it's ok like the multitude of flight attendants at AA. Did any of you ever consider adopting an attitude other than "that's the way I was treated when I was junior; so, everyone who ever follows me must be treated the same way." How selfish can you get?

It's like when they changed the jumpseat policy so that those of us who are still subject to service charges could take a jumpseat and not have to pay. I had a senior DFW flight attendant rant at me all the way from DFW to STL that if SHE had to pay service charges then I should have to pay service charges.

And, now we have the added "benefit" that Frontier and Southwest (for chrissakes) flight attendants regardless of seniority can fly free in coach on American, and I (and about 1000 other AA f/as) still have to pay service charges. And, has one senior f/a at AA raised a voice and said to the company or the union, "This isn't fair. That OUR f/as have to pay while other airline's f/as can fly free?"

I don't happen to think that this "solution" to the AVBL issue is fair. Therefore, I will protest it. In the 60's I marched with Dr. King, even though I was an upper-middle class white boy from Alabama who would never face blatant discrimination. In the 70's I protested against the Vietnam War because it was not only wrong, it was as badly managed and executed as the current Iraq war. But then, I don't see the universe as ending at the edge of my comfort zone.

As far as transferring to LGA or JFK, I would rather open a vein. When given a choice between LGA, DCA, or SLT when I was recalled, there is a reason I picked SLT. And, now that JFK f/as also have to fly out of EWR and junior f/as have to work that "redeye to London, 12 hours on the ground and redeye back to JFK flying", I fail to see a "nicer work life."

Oh, and by the way, the job works just fine for me. It's my colleagues junior to me that have to sleep in ops because they can neither afford a crash pad nor to live in base (ESPECIALLY, LGA), that I protest for. Some of you might just consider thinking about someone other than yourselves sometime.

 

[Skymess]

Yes, the results are always the same. The junior people get screwed. And, everyone who isn't subject to the screwing just says, "Well that's the way it is. And, some day you'll get to drop all your quals that would require that you actually show up to work."

Now, as a matter of fact, I probably will NOT be subject to a 2000 series line. However, I don't take the attitude that if it doesn't affect me it's ok like the multitude of flight attendants at AA. Did any of you ever consider adopting an attitude other than "that's the way I was treated when I was junior; so, everyone who ever follows me must be treated the same way." How selfish can you get?

It's like when they changed the jumpseat policy so that those of us who are still subject to service charges could take a jumpseat and not have to pay. I had a senior DFW flight attendant rant at me all the way from DFW to STL that if SHE had to pay service charges then I should have to pay service charges.

And, now we have the added "benefit" that Frontier and Southwest (for chrissakes) flight attendants regardless of seniority can fly free in coach on American, and I (and about 1000 other AA f/as) still have to pay service charges. And, has one senior f/a at AA raised a voice and said to the company or the union, "This isn't fair. That OUR f/as have to pay while other airline's f/as can fly free?"

I don't happen to think that this "solution" to the AVBL issue is fair. Therefore, I will protest it. In the 60's I marched with Dr. King, even though I was an upper-middle class white boy from Alabama who would never face blatant discrimination. In the 70's I protested against the Vietnam War because it was not only wrong, it was as badly managed and executed as the current Iraq war. But then, I don't see the universe as ending at the edge of my comfort zone.

As far as transferring to LGA or JFK, I would rather open a vein. When given a choice between LGA, DCA, or SLT when I was recalled, there is a reason I picked SLT. And, now that JFK f/as also have to fly out of EWR and junior f/as have to work that "redeye to London, 12 hours on the ground and redeye back to JFK flying", I fail to see a "nicer work life."

Oh, and by the way, the job works just fine for me. It's my colleagues junior to me that have to sleep in ops because they can neither afford a crash pad nor to live in base (ESPECIALLY, LGA), that I protest for. Some of you might just consider thinking about someone other than yourselves sometime.

You really need to direct your energies elsewhere if you really feel you are being wronged.

I was hired in '97. I am junior. This is my third airline.

You are really offensive with your holier than thou, everyone is screwing me attitude.

I commuted for two other airlines. I NEVER slept in ops. If you can't budget yourself in the correct manner that makes it so that you don't have to sleep in ops than you need to find another job. (you, meaning all FAs) What other company would even allow employees the luxury of sleeping in the office? It is disgusting.

The blame game is disgusting. This job is what it is. If you (once again meaning all FAs) hate it than leave. You are junior. Junior people get sh*t and that is life. I understand your frustration with the idea that because something has always been a certain way is a reason to continue it. They can only make so many changes that will make being junior bearable. They can't change the fact that you got hired after everyone else did and that you are at the bottom of the list. If you were at another airline you would be on straight reserve. Be glad we don't do it that way here. One of the only things I can see that would make being junior here more bearable is to make significant changes to open time trading and reserve flexibility.

So, you'd rather open a vein than transfer to NY? Then keep riding around on the stupid 80 and working like an animal with 20 days on for BS hours and stop complaining. I would rather work the system and work for 15 days for 100 hours and have 15 days off in a row. I would also rather not go to work and have to see grungy people sleeping in the office as if they were entitled to be there.

As to your complaints about the jumpseat, I am in wholehearted agreement there. I started a petition to Arpey about the jumpseat agreement being unfair to our people when other people get to ride our airline for free. You know what I got in response? A flipping form letter saying "thanks for writing, F you, we will do what we want to do". Do you know what Tommie said when I told her I was starting it? " Good idea chris. Thanks for doing it". It wasn't important for her because she only cares about dues money being available so she and her friends can be trip removed up the wazoo.

P.S.the APFA is trying to get Jet Blue jumpseat privileges on us too.

 

[jimntx]

On occasion, you might try reading my posts BEFORE responding. If anyone is being holier than thou, it would be you. And, you evidently don't know very much about the SLT base flying. We have some lovely 3 day trips on the 75 as well as on the S80. And, I flew 18 days this past month because I CHOSE to. But then, as I said to Nor-Easta, now that your mind is made up, don't let facts confuse you.

 

[Skymess]

On occasion, you might try reading my posts BEFORE responding. If anyone is being holier than thou, it would be you. And, you evidently don't know very much about the SLT base flying. We have some lovely 3 day trips on the 75 as well as on the S80. And, I flew 18 days this past month because I CHOSE to. But then, as I said to Nor-Easta, now that your mind is made up, don't let facts confuse you.

I did read your comments. I assume you were disturbed by my anti ops sleeper diatribe and felt it was directed toward you. I changed the wording to be more clear.

Everything I posted was in reference to your comments in the previous post.

As for looking at the facts maybe you should follow your own advice. Fact: AVBL is not contractual and not having AVBL would mean more reserves. An agreement was made to try to alleviate the increase in reserve numbers. You feel it is singling out junior people.

Out of curiosity, what would be your solution if you were Tommie?

As for MY "holier than thou" attitude, it is my rep and I have to live up to it now and again.

 

[Nor'Easta]

On occasion, you might try reading my posts BEFORE responding.

We have and that's why I said you're BITTER!

 

[jimntx]

I just figured out why Nor'Easta and skymess want me to shut up and just take it with line 2000 cr*p. They are junior enough that if those f/as that will be stuck with this say, "Enough, I quit," they will be the ones on perpetual reserve.

Well, get ready. As I said, I suspect that the Law of Unintended Consequences will kick in after this summer, and some people are going to find themselves back on reserve despite the APFA's "solution."

But, I'm tired of this topic. I agree. All you 8-15 year people are totally right, and I am totally wrong. That's what seniority gets you--other than the ability to whine about how good it was in the old days--the right to be right all the time, especially when telling a junior f/a that they don't know what they are talking about. "I had to put up with being treated like a red-headed stepchild; therefore, so do you."

As I told the senior mama who thought I should have to pay service charges because she did, "Yeah, well. We used to run this route with a wagon train, too. But, you know, times change."