New Pilot contract

[Reed Richards]

A few questions if I may...

- Did the east use professional negotiators assigned by ALPA National, or were they east pilots?

- Were those east pilots elected into those positions, or were they thrust upon the east by some armed invasion?

- If the east pilots in charge of the union at USAirways, who were elected by east pilots, negotiated or agreed to a moronic and fear based contract with concession after concession, isn't it the said east pilots holding the bag for their own actions?

Never mind. I think we all know the answers. 🙄

Sounds like you're already finding excuses and scapegoats for USAPA's failure. But fear not. No one will blame USAPA. They will blame the EAST PILOTS.

Your stale questions only emphasize why ALPA was so criminally neglectful in the merging of the two lists. In fact, their entire process was designed so that ALPA National would have no culpability for any result that followed. They did neither side any favors. In April of 2008 they paid for that neglect with a loss of over 8M a year in dues.

Since questions are being asked…What did ALPA National have to say when members of the West JNC took confidential data into the Nic process? Kind of like when documents from discovery during the Addington fiasco were stolen and released to the public. But I digress…..

RR

 

[AWA320]

What does everyon think of the resolution brought up in DC about the vacation bidding that had been agreed to by the NIC and the company?

Its a product of a contract so I think you can get it ONCE you get a contract but outside of a contract you wont get it.

AWA320

 

[sumadarson]

A few questions if I may...

- Did the east use professional negotiators assigned by ALPA National, or were they east pilots?

- Were those east pilots elected into those positions, or were they thrust upon the east by some armed invasion?

- If the east pilots in charge of the union at USAirways, who were elected by east pilots, negotiated or agreed to a moronic and fear based contract with concession after concession, isn't it the said east pilots holding the bag for their own actions?

Never mind. I think we all know the answers. 🙄

Sounds like you're already finding excuses and scapegoats for USAPA's failure. But fear not. No one will blame USAPA. They will blame the EAST PILOTS.

ALPA provided the "expertise". ALPA reps kept voting themselves in. The line pilots tried to recall the CLT reps, ALPA national would not allow this. ALPA put the PHL base into receivership and took it over when the line pilots tried to voice their opinions not to ALPA's liking. It was a runaway train. ALPA was subsequently fired by the USAirways pilots ironically by a vote.

ALPA negotiators were parodied on the following web site. Southwest Airlines and American Airlines have had the best pilot contracts lately because they are not represented by ALPA and have their own unions. Scroll below to see the second video. There is a new sheriff in town now for USAirways pilots.

ALPA's example of negotiating

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Your stale questions only emphasize why ALPA was so criminally neglectful in the merging of the two lists. In fact, their entire process was designed so that ALPA National would have no culpability for any result that followed. They did neither side any favors. In April of 2008 they paid for that neglect with a loss of over 8M a year in dues.

Since questions are being asked…What did ALPA National have to say when members of the West JNC took confidential data into the Nic process? Kind of like when documents from discovery during the Addington fiasco were stolen and released to the public. But I digress…..

RR

REED, cmon your divulging those dirty little secrets the WEST doesn't want out! MM Where are those AOL guy's with the 15year fwd looking attrition numbers! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Its a product of a contract so I think you can get it ONCE you get a contract but outside of a contract you wont get it.

AWA320

Very Good sort of like the NIC! NMM! But since it won't be in a contract, sort of hard to imagine! Looking for that attrition data, na guess not doesn't make AOL look very good! MM!

 

[mikey60]

Industry Standard Pay is a must.

If we are going to have a two class Reserve System, then the Long Call Reserve needs to be changed to 18 to 24 hours prior to departure to actually enable those on reserve to comfortably sit out of base and have better odds commuting in to cover a trip, barring any conflict with the New Rules when they get finalized. 9 hour call out is ridiculous and needs to be changed. Even a 3 Class Reserve System would work nicely, 85 hour guarantee for Quick Call, 76 hours for 6 to 18 hour call out and 72 hours for beyond 18 hours. Just random numbers for discussion purposes. But a system like this could eliminate transitioning folks, which is a pain for those who commute.

Rotating reserve would be nice too where everyone stands a month of reserve once a year, then holding a block the other 11 months of the year. This will never happen and if it did, we would all have to be honest and play by the rules, i.e. not sick out for the month.

I was talking to a fed the other day that I have known for some time and since you brought up the subject

of commuting and being out of base I'll tell what he mentioned. After that accident in BUF they found out

the f/o had commuted in the night before and didn't get any rest. He "said" the FAA is looking at

looking at making it manditory for you to be in or near base "x" number of hours before check in. I don't

know if he was trying to pull my chain of not, but?

 

[mikey60]

The AWA contract has industry leading reserve section, the east doesn't care.

Don't go ballistic,yet. If it is better it will be used. It took a while for the PI guys to get used to the bid sheet, boy those were the days.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

That industry leading RESERVE section, maybe you should pass it to your F/A's because it seems to draw alot of banter on the AFA thread! MM!

 

[AWA320]

Very Good sort of like the NIC! NMM! But since it won't be in a contract, sort of hard to imagine! Looking for that attrition data, na guess not doesn't make AOL look very good! MM!

No more like you just want to argue about everything while running around with blinders on. You dont do the min research and would much rather live life like a mushroom, in the dark being fed ####!! I dont have this so called data and frankly it really doesnt matter. What does matter is your accepting responsibility for your actions and honor your agreements. Even that doesnt matter as not only have faith but can assure you that you will never get out of that arbitration no matter how much you want to or how much your second rate lawyer tells you he can while cashing your checks that will put his kids thru HARVARD! Let me ask you this, when he loses the final battle will he be returning most of the money he's bilked out of the east thru usapa??? My mother used to always say "a fool and his money are soon parted"!!!

 

[cynic]

I was talking to a fed the other day that I have known for some time and since you brought up the subject

of commuting and being out of base I'll tell what he mentioned. After that accident in BUF they found out

the f/o had commuted in the night before and didn't get any rest. He "said" the FAA is looking at

looking at making it manditory for you to be in or near base "x" number of hours before check in. I don't

know if he was trying to pull my chain of not, but?

It was addressed in the duty time/rest requirment proposal that was published a couple months age. They are not looking to make any changes to commuting at this time. They did look at it and said there were good reasons against making changes.

 

[Lord of Reserve]

Autofixer said:
"Generally reserves are crapped on around here in negotiations. The reserve system has been here to serve the block holders...not to ensure the schedule as it is at most airlines. However, I and most F/Os have been on reserve for the majority of our 20+ years at LCC (albeit some of those by choice, hate to commute). Thus, I think the reserve issue might actually get some attention this time around since we are actually involved in negotiations this time. "



Hello Autofixer,
Actually one of the members of the JNC was an F.O. on Reserve.

At the time the East pulled out of the JNC, the JNC consisted of:

Donn Butkovic (East 767 Line check Airman)
Doug Mowery (East 737 mid level Block holder Captain)
Doug Dotter (West A-320 Mid level Lineholder Captain)
Jim Van Sickle (West B-757 Reserve F.O.)

I think this was a pretty good mix, unlike the NC now, which (from my understanding) is staffed entirely by guys who were on furlough.


Also, whomever was asking about West Reserve, if you have specifics, ask away. Yes, we do call for release when we are done with a trip. In eight years on reserve, I have been extended twice, once for a turn, and once for an overnight. I have been able to hold a line since I finished IOE, but (like many others on the west) choose to bid reserve. In my first 6 1/2 years on the 757, I flew just about 1200 hours.

Lord of Reserve

 

[autofixer]

Also, whomever was asking about West Reserve, if you have specifics, ask away. Yes, we do call for release when we are done with a trip. In eight years on reserve, I have been extended twice, once for a turn, and once for an overnight. I have been able to hold a line since I finished IOE, but (like many others on the west) choose to bid reserve. In my first 6 1/2 years on the 757, I flew just about 1200 hours.

Lord of Reserve


That sounds somewhat reassuring, that call for release thing sounds scary. I turn off my phone and nearly sprint out of the terminal to the employee bus, not turning my phone on until I am 15 minutes down the road. I know that is irrational as I have only been snagged maybe 2 or 3 times in my 24 years. I feel the same about reserve vs. a line. I flew a line in October and it almost killed me.

What is the deal with the golden days? We have a problem on the east with scheduling assigning trips into your days off even if they are only marginally short coverage. We only have 4 Inviolable days, the other 7 are fair game; that has been around even before LOA93.

 

[malikie]

Also, whomever was asking about West Reserve, if you have specifics, ask away. Yes, we do call for release when we are done with a trip. In eight years on reserve, I have been extended twice, once for a turn, and once for an overnight. I have been able to hold a line since I finished IOE, but (like many others on the west) choose to bid reserve. In my first 6 1/2 years on the 757, I flew just about 1200 hours.

Lord of Reserve



What is the deal with the golden days? We have a problem on the east with scheduling assigning trips into your days off even if they are only marginally short coverage. We only have 4 Inviolable days, the other 7 are fair game; that has been around even before LOA93. [/b]

Golden Days are just that, Golden. Scheduling, no matter how bad the staffing is, cannot schedule a trip into or onto a Golden Day. Reserve pilots also cannot be junior assigned on days off. The only way a trip can be assigned to a pilot on their Golden Days would be if the trips are red flagged and the pilots pick the trips out of open time.

 

[Lord of Reserve]

Yep,
That's the deal with Golden days. You can't get touched.
I just finished a tough month for November. I got used for two two days, and a day trip. The day trip involved a deadhead out, and flying the return flight home. We were scheduled to return at 0235, so it counted for two days (1030) of credit. Not bad for one leg. My total for the month:
Five legs of flying.
Block: 19.39
Credit: 30.38
6 of 8 weekend days off
Thanksgiving at home with my family.

I also got Dec 24, and 25 off, all weekends in Dec. off, and New Years Day off.


I think your guys on the East would like our reserve system.



Lord of Reserve

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think your guys on the East would like our reserve system.



Lord of Reserve

Probably right. There is little that can be worse than the east reserve system. I suppose we could let the old ALPA guys again try to improve it...then we could see exactly how much worse it could be.