NMB Speaks: We Have an Election! ALPA/USAPA Topic for 2/19-26

[N924PS]

So what happens if these new "negotiations" fail to find an agreeable solution for two different groups flying with two different collective bargaining agreements? Also there was mention made by USAPA of protecting expectations that said pilots had based on fleet plans. So who gets protected on all of the equipment and routes added since this merger was announced? What about the Airbuses that were on order at AWA that end up mostly East? Since it was in the fleet plan of AWA are those airframes going to be protected for solely West pilots?

Maybe another arbitration? And what happens if USAPA is unhappy with that result? Another new union?

 

[YVINTERN]

Yeah maybe we will rename it UPYOURSAPA...Just an idea...anyhow I hope USAPA prevails though.

 

[700UW]

Guys, if you want to learn about you legal rights under Labor Law, go here:

http://www.nrtw.org

You can read ALL you want about NLRB and RLA history. Answers most questions about JUST what is happening here.

First of all the NLRB has NOTHING do to with the RLA, that would be the NMB.

The NLRB has jurisdiction over the NRLA, the NMB has it over the RLA.

Two differant boards, two differant laws.

Beck vs the CWA changed the closed shop, you do not have to be a member of the union to work at US, you can be an dues objector and agency fee payor. They are considered non-members, cannot vote on CBAs, officers or strikes and cannot attend union meetings, if they were members they would be able to do all of the above.

 

[CaptChill]

I have no answers for you, however, I encourage each of you with questions to query USAPA and post their answers on this forum. Unlike ALPA there will be no secret meetings, eveything will be transparent.

If you would take a step back, and think what ALPA has done or failed to do for each of you, if the Nic award were not involved, wouldn't you be joining USAPA en force, as there have been many travasties visited upon the AWA and AAA pilots at the hands of ALPA.

The message USAPA is trying to bring is this is not a "East" union, it is a collective union of ALL pilots of US Airways. How disgruntled would you be if you kept what you had before the merger, but were now working for a stonger company because of the merger? That future flying was shared and a host of other problems were addressed?

West pilots, USAPA wants your input, your involvement... Only YOU can decde if you want to be part of this history making process (and part of the solution) to move beyond the stalemate in which we find ourselves today.

USAPA
5821 Fairview Road
Suite 119
Charlotte, NC 28209
877-678-7272
Hotline: x706
Info@USAirlinePilots.org

Captchill

 

[jerseyfinn]

I'm just a pax who sits in the back trying to fly A to B ( hopefullly with my baggage making the journey ). So I read this and other threads simply to educate myself about what is going on with the folks in the cockpit because you are afterall, important to my likelihood of arriving safe, sound, and on-time.

That said, I must admit that the contrite complacency which bounces about in these threads is at times disingenuous and annoying. But I accept that as part and parcel with trying to figure out how to combine pilot groups when management elects to stand aside and run from the problems which were always present and very much an inherent part of the acquisition/merger. Still, the clock is running and a distinct dysfunctionality persists ( and I'm not talking about the dysfunctional miscreants who call themselves the management of US Air ).

But hey, what you have here is a disagreement/responsibility/challenge/contract/experience which is moving forward with or without you. I put a good part of it down to politics. And the first step here in this process is for all of you to admit that politics is what you're fighting over. And likewise admit that politics is an every day part of life. What is going on here is a plain and simple tussle for power ( or empowerment ) phrased and conducted in the politics of the workplace, the company, the union, and individual relationships. So there's truth, passion, anger, fury and some BS sprinkled in to spice things up. You're all being very real people caught in a difficult situation which is partly your making and partly out of your hands as mother Earth spins around shaking up the lottery balls of Life.

I'm not gonna side with anyone here as my own interest in plain and simple an airline which becomes whole and functions as such. You folks are only a part of the solution as your buffoon leaders in Tempe also must also learn how to run a real airline and look pax and employees in the eye while delivering a product. If there is one truth I am able to divine out of all of this it is that DOH is both instructive in building a timeline of employment/seniority and how each airline defines the seniority ( which by contract ) determines how you're gonna fly. This in turn determines the character and your satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the job & the money you will/will not make. So I see where both sides are coming from and why the passions/feelings are so strong. I think it's the "contract" part of this which makes things so difficult to resolve as a conract ( or an arbitrator's decree ) are words written and spoken in legalistic jingosims which are not always so precise and clear as one would hope. It all looks good on paper until you try to put it into real life practice. My point is that people are what define the playing field while words lay down (imperfect) guidelines to conduct ourselves. No suprise that these guidelines are as imperfect as the people who write them.

So hey, just keep talking with each other and not at each other. This things gotta go somewhere, the only question left is how long it takes to find some sort of resolution. I myself am gonna be focusing more upon the dysfunctionality of the democrats as their candidates duke it out and the convention and finally the November elections arrive. Should be some great bluster and collisions of egos and ideas as people collide and argue over the politics of politics. I suspect that when the November election is done and finished, that things here are still gonna be indeterminate. Just keep talking and eventually something will happen.

Fly safe, if not happy.

Barry

 

[N924PS]

If you would take a step back, and think what ALPA has done or failed to do for each of you, if the Nic award were not involved, wouldn't you be joining USAPA en force, as there have been many travasties visited upon the AWA and AAA pilots at the hands of ALPA.

The message USAPA is trying to bring is this is not a "East" union, it is a collective union of ALL pilots of US Airways. How disgruntled would you be if you kept what you had before the merger, but were now working for a stonger company because of the merger? That future flying was shared and a host of other problems were addressed?


Captchill

ALPA USAirways has failed the East pilot group, not ALPA as an organization. In fact, it is the East pilots themselves that should shoulder the blame.

Just like the upcoming NMB election is a democratic process (with the exception of the pension giveaway) the East pilots have voted IN FAVOR of every contract offer, including the egregious LOA93. Self-inflicted wounds if you will, not at the hands of ALPA national.

Saying USAPA is attempting to bring a collective union seems disingenuous to me. USAPA keeps saying the Nicolau Award is not the main reason for its effort, but would there even be a decert effort had the East prevailed with the DOH/LOS methodology?

If the Nic Award was not involved, we would not be at t his crossroads, at least not at this time. To say otherwise is election spin.

On another note, jerseyfinn's post was very thoughtful and a respite on this thread which probably could be closed out anytime.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Those willing to say that all they want is what they had will be thrilled with the representation they will receive from USAPA.

Sounds good to me. Pre-merger, AWA had new airplanes being delivered and was hiring. In contrast, pre-merger USAirways was still furloughing and had deferred all deliveries. See, this is how I know USAPAs are lying. They won't allow the West to regain what the merger took from us.

 

[P51Pilot]

Sounds good to me. Pre-merger, AWA had new airplanes being delivered and was hiring. In contrast, pre-merger USAirways was still furloughing and had deferred all deliveries. See, this is how I know USAPAs are lying. They won't allow the West to regain what the merger took from us.

You weren't placing any of those aircraft in PHL, PIT, CLT, DCA, BOS, or LGA. Where was all your growth, or were airbuses replacing 73's and you had a training float? With your high yields, vast profits, and mighty network, where was all this growth taking place? A few routes to Hawaii? It seems AWA was coming to the end of the road absent the merger, Parker new it and attached his airline to a network with potential.

It seems that the East was the airline with potential and with the older pilot group, their pilots had the most to gain from attrition. Don't quote ALPA mergercy policy(guidelines) or the arbitration. Nothing neutral about having your career decided by a "neutral" who is advised by panel members from CAL and DAL and their motivation and agendas and what merger scheme might benefit their members down the road. Lest you forget, US Airways had a hostile bid in for Delta at the same time one of their pilots was "advising" Nicalou.

 

[usabusdriver]

It seems that the East was the airline with potential and with the older pilot group, their pilots had the most to gain from attrition. Don't quote ALPA mergercy policy(guidelines) or the arbitration. Nothing neutral about having your career decided by a "neutral" who is advised by panel members from CAL and DAL and their motivation and agendas and what merger scheme might benefit their members down the road. Lest you forget, US Airways had a hostile bid in for Delta at the same time one of their pilots was "advising" Nicalou.

Um, that would be CAL and UAL, not DAL.

 

[P51Pilot]

Um, that would be CAL and UAL, not DAL.

My mistake but the point is the same. UAL engineered the change in merger policy particularly for the likes of a merger with US Airways. Of course they will scream bloody murder and are already throwing their weight around, since the shoe would be on the other foot with CAL. CAL just ordered more 777s and has 2005 737 Captains. It appears DAL and NWA have a differing view of seniority as well. How neutral are the pilot neutrals? Great organization, ALPA is. :down:

 

[exB717Flyer]

You weren't placing any of those aircraft in PHL, PIT, CLT, DCA, BOS, or LGA. Where was all your growth, or were airbuses replacing 73's and you had a training float?

Irrelevent. Growth is growth.

With your high yields, vast profits, and mighty network, where was all this growth taking place?

Remind me again which airline was solvent and which airline was in it's second Chapter 11 and without a viable business plan? (note: the financial status of each company had nothing to do with its pilots, however, as ruled by Nicolau, it most certainly had something to do with career expectations.)

It seems AWA was coming to the end of the road absent the merger, Parker new it and attached his airline to a network with potential.

This is where opinon seperates from fact. Parker can say anytime he wants that an airline will be in bankuptcy in 6-9 months if things don't get better. Even Nicolau knew that his comments were simply meant only to appease certain employees (like you). The publicly published (SEC) filings don't say anything about AWA "coming to an end". Fact versus speculation. Nice try.

It seems that the East was the airline with potential and with the older pilot group, their pilots had the most to gain from attrition.

And as noted by Nicolau, they also had the most to gain from a merger.

Don't quote ALPA mergercy policy(guidelines) or the arbitration.

Right. That's kind of like reading a US Supreme Court ruling and crying, "that's not Constitutional!" They are the highest authority in the matter just as the arbitrator is. And guess what, bubba, the arbitrator is neutral whereas you and I are not. You can't tell me to disregard the neutral because he didn't agree with your notions about seniority. He ruled the way he did for a reason. If your way was the "right" way he would've ruled in your favor.

Nothing neutral about having your career decided by a "neutral" who is advised by panel members from CAL and DAL and their motivation and agendas and what merger scheme might benefit their members down the road. Lest you forget, US Airways had a hostile bid in for Delta at the same time one of their pilots was "advising" Nicalou.

You can insult Nicolau's intelligence all you like but it's irrelevent. He's still smarter than you or I. And I don't recall you disparaging him before he ruled. Quite disingenuous of you. You're happy as long as you get what you want. Most people grow out of this phase by the end of high school.

 

[P51Pilot]

He's still smarter than you or I. And I don't recall you disparaging him before he ruled. Quite disingenuous of you. You're happy as long as you get what you want. Most people grow out of this phase by the end of high school.

By all means be an apologist for your own intellect. You can keep PHX and LAS which you should be happy with. You know all that pre-merger growth and all. I mean if it was for ordained because of AWA's untapped potential from those markets the fence created with USAPAs DOH contract should have you peeing in your pants with glee. You keep what you had and will have your upgrades "there" protected. If you want to go East which as so many claim no to, blending in with the pilots on the East using DOH should be no problem. It was their airline, their jobs, and expectations. It was their pension, work rules, pay, scope that was sacrificed to protect it. Of course you seem to be happy benefiting from others sacrifices and not what you paid for yourself. I don't have a quippy High School remark to comaback with for that because most people aren't thieves.

 

[EastUS]

He ruled the way he did for a reason. If your way was the "right" way he would've ruled in your favor.You can insult Nicolau's intelligence all you like but it's irrelevent. He's still smarter than you or I.

"He ruled the way he did for a reason." For all you/we know; he got fed up and flipped a coin.

"If your way was the "right" way he would've ruled in your favor". Wow!...so this gentlemen's the infallible arbitrator of ALL that's "right" as well as seniority issues?...Impressive.

"He's still smarter than you or I." I can only assume you're assigning yourself as the pinnacle reference for universal pilot intellect...sigh....hokay. 🙄

Just curious; Have you, as of yet, commissioned the thrice-lifesize statue of the gentlemen...to presumably adorn some future St Nic Park in PHX? Sorry..but I'm past sick of this kind of crap....wanting to take a seat equal, or superiour to anyone with 19+ more years of experience is wrong on SO many levels that it's really not worth addressing anymore.

Ummm..Whilst you're clearly all aglow over Mr Nic: Have you noticed at all the small degree of difficulty this fellow's sage wisdom has brought forward for us all? Productive arbitration proceedings generally serve to irritate both sides to much the same degree....'nuff said.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Pertinent parts of the TRANSITION agreement:



Read paragraphs A and B above. NO MERGER OF THE TWO MEC'S OCCUR IF USAPA GETS VOTED IN. USAPA REPRESENTS ALL PILOTS..... NMB "SINGLE-CARRIER STATUS"...REMEMBER? The Airline parties have NO MEC'S to recognize. THEY DON'T EXIST.



The force and effect of THIS LOA has little connection or applicability to USAPA in relation to ALPA merger policy. USAPA doesn't HAVE MEC'S. Read the Constitution and Bylaws....the have Domicle officers which constitute a Board of Pilot representatives. THERE ARE NO MORE MEC'S!!!

That means ALL MEMBERS IN GOOD STANDING OF ALL PILOTS WILL VOTE FOR A TENTATIVE AGREEMENT! Of THAT group, the majority will either APPROVE or reject a tentative agreement....no matter WHAT list is in it!

So you're saying that simply because USAPA doesn't have an MEC type structure they are not obligated to abide by the transition agreement???

 

[nostradamus]

You can insult Nicolau's intelligence all you like but it's irrelevent. He's still smarter than you or I. And I don't recall you disparaging him before he ruled.

Mr Nicolau evaluated the information he received. Garbage in, garbage out.