NMB Speaks: We Have an Election! ALPA/USAPA Topic for 2/19-26

[Phoenix]

Mr Nicolau evaluated the information he received. Garbage in, garbage out.

Ahh... Garbage in, yes. But what came out is all in the eyes of the beholder, or fist of the grabber .

 

[sharktooth]

Not really replying to anyone specifically, but, the banner headline for this topic seems made for the typical west pilot:

"Teen Flight Academy" - Girls/Boys prep school offers
flight training program. Grade 6-12 www.flair.com

Subtle or not?

 

[nostradamus]

Ahh... Garbage in, yes. But what came out is all in the eyes of the beholder, or fist of the grabber .

Well you see it was our alpa that is the problem, not national alpa. We were not allowed to vote, yet we are responsible for the mec we voted in. Yet once we voted them in we were not allowed to vote again and they are given national alpa jobs after they decide what is best for us. National alpa is alpa and our local mec alpa is alpa but we can not........................????????????????????

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So you're saying that simply because USAPA doesn't have an MEC type structure they are not obligated to abide by the transition agreement???

It really gets convoluted doesn't it? I was at the ALPA Informational Meeting last Thurs. in CLT. The esteemed ALPA lawyers were more than happy, spring loaded in fact, to tell the pilots that if USAPA wins the election the Transition Agreement disappears. Seems all the quasi west lawyers say it remains. hhmm IMO It seems there is quite a conundrum developing.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Mr Nicolau evaluated the information he received. Garbage in, garbage out.

Oh, I see, so you think if only you'd been the one providing Nicolau with information he'd have ruled differently? So then why weren't you on the AAA Merger Committee? Do you feel your Merger Committee was incompetent? Funny, I don't recall any other Eastie being critical of their Committee yet here you are claiming they provided Nicolau with "garbage". I'm sure Nicolau wishes he had everything figured out like you do.

 

[EastUS]

Oh, I see, so you think if only you'd been the one providing Nicolau with information he'd have ruled differently? So then why weren't you on the AAA Merger Committee? Do you feel your Merger Committee was incompetent? Funny, I don't recall any other Eastie being critical of their Committee yet here you are claiming they provided Nicolau with "garbage". I'm sure Nicolau wishes he had everything figured out like you do.

Ummm..OK; I'm now a bit confused here. You've earlier stated that Mr Nic's smarter than yourself and all of us here of course. It would seem difficult for you to presume to have the slightest knowledge of his thought processes then...although you've supreme confidence in the outcome of his wisdom it seems. But: "I'm sure Nicolau wishes he had everything figured out like you do."? That last seems a bit quizzical....Are you now even remotely suggesting that Nic perhaps didn't indeed have "everything figured out" ?? You've lost me...but 'den..I guesses I wuz nevah none too smurt neither...I R jess' 'nuther pylut lahk you's I guesses

PS: How in Hades would you even pretend to have the slightest notions as to how ANY of the "any other Eastie"s felt, or what they expressed? It isn't like you've been around out here to know. For that matter; why would anyone seek to limit their criticism to just a given committee, when one's disgusted with the entire "association"?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So then why weren't you on the AAA Merger Committee? Do you feel your Merger Committee was incompetent? Funny, I don't recall any other Eastie being critical of their Committee yet here you are claiming they provided Nicolau with "garbage".

Just because you didn't hear it here first, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I voiced my opinion that one of our esteemed members was incompetent. So far under his fine leadership I am 0 for 2. Now it's 0 for 3 if allowed to stand. I also voiced my opinion that Nicolau should be the first strike. As usual, the reps think "We know what's best for you" attitude prevailed. I was and remain extremely critical of BK for more reasons than you think.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Just because you didn't hear it here first, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I voiced my opinion that one of our esteemed members was incompetent. So far under his fine leadership I am 0 for 2. Now it's 0 for 3 if allowed to stand. I also voiced my opinion that Nicolau should be the first strike. As usual, the reps think "We know what's best for you" attitude prevailed. I was and remain extremely critical of BK for more reasons than you think.

Obviously we on the west have those same type of disagreements and squables, its only natural really. What I don't get is that people really think usapa will be some kind of new revolutionary way of doing things. Human nature is human nature. Usapa is promising all kinds of things, should they get voted in it will be interesting to look back in a few years.

I saw one of usapa's road show videos when WM stated that the west would be better of with usapa whether they knew it yet or not. The more I think about it he may be right, but not for the reasons he is thinking. I wouldn't be a bit surprised that when usapa tries to test some of their theories the courts and judges will end up making them wish for ALPA's mollycoddling and enabling back. Strangely enough, ALPA may be your best bet to "mitigate" the nic.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

ALPA USAirways has failed the East pilot group, not ALPA as an organization. In fact, it is the East pilots themselves that should shoulder the blame.

It's BOTH. Our reps rely on ALPA for research and legal advice. The problem is the ALPA structure is such that the east reps and committees work from a lot of ALPA supplied information and make decisions accordingly. Then when questioned the reps pass the blame to ALPA National. IF you talk to those purveyors of such fine expert advice, they blame the reps. Quite a set up of covering each other with misinformation and misdirection. Clever, very clever.

Just like the upcoming NMB election is a democratic process (with the exception of the pension giveaway) the East pilots have voted IN FAVOR of every contract offer, including the egregious LOA93. Self-inflicted wounds if you will, not at the hands of ALPA national.

Sorry, not all. We didn't get to vote on contract '92. You know, the one your hero Armin J. offered up the duty rigs in exchange for pension parity for the PSA types. Look what it got us. Anytime an MEC chairman has the power to give away anything with out a vote only tells me the structure is flawed. At least the core group of dump ALPA was founded after that debacle. Luckily it has been building ever since.

Saying USAPA is attempting to bring a collective union seems disingenuous to me. USAPA keeps saying the Nicolau Award is not the main reason for its effort, but would there even be a decert effort had the East prevailed with the DOH/LOS methodology?

Yes!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised that when usapa tries to test some of their theories the courts and judges will end up making them wish for ALPA's mollycoddling and enabling back. By that I don't mean the west would be better off, I just mean that the east guys looking for a way around this nic award may very well end up more sorry they ever tried this experiment than the west would be.

Already discussed. But if it will make you feel better, knock yourself out.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Already discussed. But if it will make you feel better, knock yourself out.

Nah, you guys are the ones trying to knock yourself out it looks like. You think you've got it all figured out....again. I don't know jack, really, but at least I'm aware of it, I'm not so sure about you.

 

[EastUS]

Strangely enough, ALPA may be your best bet to "mitigate" the nic.

Interesting premise, given that Alpa produced this debacle, and is sworn to "defend the award" and seems completely unable to even spur the west-east mec's towards even ceremonial harrumphing in unison about anything....then too; there's yet this tricky little business about convincing the east to ratify any contract with Nic in it.....

Yes..I can clearly see the wisdom in that line of thinking. :blink:

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Interesting premise, given that Alpa produced this debacle, and is sworn to "defend the award" and seems completely unable to even spur the west-east mec's towards even ceremonial harrumphing in unison about anything....then too; there's yet this tricky little business about convincing the east to ratify any contract with Nic in it.....

Yes..I can clearly see the wisdom in that line of thinking. :blink:

You've been mitigating it so far haven't you? Prater just lets you guys pull out of negotiations and do about any other thing that you want. Your losing out on some improvements in the meantime, but we've already been over that. I guess the only problem at the moment is you can't eat your cake to...

I know you believe you will have a simple majority vote with usapa, but are you really sure? What about when it gets tested, you may find you hit a snag, but then again I'm just speculating. I know you've got it all covered, I'll just shut up now.

 

[exB717Flyer]

It would seem difficult for you to presume to have the slightest knowledge of his thought processes then...although you've supreme confidence in the outcome of his wisdom it seems.

All I know about Nicolau's thought process is what he wrote in his USAir/Shuttle and the AWA/USAirways decisions. Unlike you, he provided logical rationale for his decisions. This whole mess isn't about ALPA. They're your diversionary tactic. It's all about you not getting what you wanted and throwing a tantrum until you do.

But: "I'm sure Nicolau wishes he had everything figured out like you do."? That last seems a bit quizzical....

Your reading comprehension is poor. Try reading the post I was responding to -- you know, the one where the USAirways East pilot claims Nicolau didn't know what he was doing, was senile, was incompetent, was influenced by others with agendas, was on that grassy knoll back in '63, etc.

PS: How in Hades would you even pretend to have the slightest notions as to how ANY of the "any other Eastie"s felt, or what they expressed? It isn't like you've been around out here to know.

Ah, but that is where you are quite mistaken. Three years of USAirways Express flying and three years of TWA flying. I know your type quite well. You're not special. USAirways isn't the only airline to have been through multiple bankruptcies, suffered from the IAM's antics, and went through a nasty merger. Yes, I know you quite well. Isn't it time for you to blow your gasket and get suspended from here again?

 

[N924PS]

Not really replying to anyone specifically, but, the banner headline for this topic seems made for the typical west pilot:



Subtle or not?

The West pilots, many of them that post here, have certainly added more to the discussion and made more cogent arguments than you have since this fisco began last May.

The typical West pilots that I have met and observed look, act and fly professionally. The last time I was in an East crewroom it looked like the cast of "Hogan's Heroe's".

Age and experience doesn't always equate to maturity and your latest post is living proof.