NMB Speaks: We Have an Election! ALPA/USAPA Topic for 2/19-26

[ableoneable]

I am a west guy who is considering voting for USAPA.

I have talked with some of our (West MEC) officers and committee members and their feeling is that should USAPA lose the election ALPA national is going to continue to sit on its ass and do nothing but continue to placate the East.

I have felt, and those close to the situation share this view, that ALPA national has always sympathized with the East's position with regards to Nicolau. National will continue to propose commissions, committees, steering groups and other tactics designed to pressure the west into re-negotiating what has already been arbitrated.

ALPA national has held the west back while the east has gained the benefits. We have pilots who sit reserve FO on the 73 and 320 who should be in the left seat of 190s. National has done nothing for the west.

USAPA may or may not last. If they die we may well become teamsters and that is fine with me. Now is probably our best shot at getting rid of ALPA.

We will probably be paying dues to USAPA. Our outside council has told us that we need to be in good standing with USAPA in order to prevail in the DFR suit.

As soon as USAPA acts to negotiate a contract with a seniority list of their own making we will have what our outside counsel has termed "as close to a sure thing as exists in a civil case."

If ALPA remains the bargaining agent the stagnation will probably continue indefinitely. National will never put any East LEC into receivership and Contract 2004/LOA93 will probably be in force for years to come. That or we will be right back here in 12 months with another decertification drive. (It is my understanding that if USAPA wins there is a two year lock before another change of representation election can be held but if ALPA prevails the clock runs out in 12 months.)

At least with USAPA we can leave the stagnation behind and as soon as USAPA acts to harm the west group we will at last be able to move forward and collect damages from USAPA.

The only monkey wrench to the whole thing would be if we are involved in another merger. In that case when airline X's pilot union asks for a seniority list with which to integrate with their own they will be handed the Nic list.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Actual LEADERS act proactively and get major issues out of the way BEFORE merging.



"Union leaders at both Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines have reached agreement on consolidation under a merged carrier, according to media reports.

A report on the Detroit News web site said an agreement would be presented at the Delta board meeting on Wednesday in New York.

The agreement outlines terms such as combining pilots' seniority lists, a tool used to determine pay and scheduling for pilots. Pilots are also seeking representation on the board as well as an equity stake in the merged carrier.

Reaching a deal with the pilots unions has been a major hurdle in negotiations of a possible merger between Atlanta-based Delta (NYSE: DAL) and Eagan-based Northwest (NYSE: NWA). The Business Journal reported yesterday that deal would create the largest airline in the world, with 79,000 employees, and is expected to be announced this week. "

Union leaders at both Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines have reached agreement on consolidation under a merged carrier, according to media reports.

Entire Article

Hey, Piney....Let's not jump the gun just yet.

"Some signs pointed to the possibility of board approval of a merger on Wednesday night, but the inability of the pilot groups to work out differences prevented that.

The two pilots' groups — both part of the Air Line Pilots Association — reached a stalemate Wednesday over the issue of seniority. That is a core issue because it determines what planes they fly, their pay rates, career advancement and work schedules.

"We want any seniority list integration to be fair to pilots at the top, middle and bottom of the list," said Greg Rizzuto, a spokesman for the Northwest branch of ALPA. "A pilot's career is tied completely to his or her seniority ranking. A short-term economic benefit is not worth sacrificing the possibility of advancement."

Northwest pilot negotiators worry that under terms offered by their union counterparts at Delta, nearly all of the current Northwest pilots would in a few years be blocked from advancement to higher-paid positions flying the largest jets.

The imbalance would result from the fact that hundreds of senior Delta pilots took early retirement before the company filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2005.

At the same time, most of Northwest's senior pilots remained in their jobs.

As a result, most of Delta's pilots today are junior to Northwest's most senior pilots. But as those senior Northwest pilots reach retirement over the next several years, Delta pilots would have the inside track on top-paying jobs as captains of the largest jetliners."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/t...r-at-risk_N.htm

You really didn't think THEY would make it that easy, did you??

 

[AAA73Pilot]

With all due respect, I think you are stroking us on that one. Sure, you'll welcome our participation when the numbers render us irrelevant anyway. You guys are always so magnanimous when you feel you've got us where you want us, so to speak.

Not stroking. If you have ever read my posts, I have always said to the effect your participation is up to you. The west posters have always referenced an industry leading contract if we stay with ALPA. I have always questioned that statement that no contract will be industry leading with Nic intact. So the choices are good if we are unified. Bad if we are divided and from my perspective ugly if Nic is included. I'm not being magnanimous when I am asking for your participation. To get a good contract we will have to be unified. Personally I don't thinks it's possible, but I still hold out for some amount of participation.

The vote is coming and ALPA will be gone. Simple as that. The future is up to us.

 

[N924PS]

Not stroking. If you have ever read my posts, I have always said to the effect your participation is up to you. The west posters have always referenced an industry leading contract if we stay with ALPA. I have always questioned that statement that no contract will be industry leading with Nic intact. So the choices are good if we are unified. Bad if we are divided and from my perspective ugly if Nic is included. I'm not being magnanimous when I am asking for your participation. To get a good contract we will have to be unified. Personally I don't thinks it's possible, but I still hold out for some amount of participation.

The vote is coming and ALPA will be gone. Simple as that. The future is up to us.

So how will you feel if Nic is still in place after USAPA is the new CBA? Will the decertification of ALPA have been worth it when when the end result is the same?

The chances of getting an industry leading contract have slipped away while the Nic-USAPA process has unfolded. $100 barrel oil is the new reality. The window of opportunity has closed absent some sweet deal from management to make the next consolidation smoother.

Look forward to years more of LOA93 either way. Management has zero incentive to negotiate new contracts with any labor group. And they know they will continue to exploit a divided group yet again. This time they will be wearing "Seniority Matters" lanyards and USAPA pins, but nothing else will have changed.

 

[luvthe9]

So how will you feel if Nic is still in place after USAPA is the new CBA? Will the decertification of ALPA have been worth it when when the end result is the same?

The chances of getting an industry leading contract have slipped away while the Nic-USAPA process has unfolded. $100 barrel oil is the new reality. The window of opportunity has closed absent some sweet deal from management to make the next consolidation smoother.

Look forward to years more of LOA93 either way. Management has zero incentive to negotiate new contracts with any labor group. And they know they will continue to exploit a divided group yet again. This time they will be wearing "Seniority Matters" lanyards and USAPA pins, but nothing else will have changed.

"Zero incentive" I guess you have not noticed the fuel burn around this place. I think the company is a bit concerned. You did get a CBS message.

 

[nostradamus]

So how will you feel if Nic is still in place after USAPA is the new CBA? Will the decertification of ALPA have been worth it when when the end result is the same?

The chances of getting an industry leading contract have slipped away while the Nic-USAPA process has unfolded. $100 barrel oil is the new reality. The window of opportunity has closed absent some sweet deal from management to make the next consolidation smoother.

Look forward to years more of LOA93 either way. Management has zero incentive to negotiate new contracts with any labor group. And they know they will continue to exploit a divided group yet again. This time they will be wearing "Seniority Matters" lanyards and USAPA pins, but nothing else will have changed.

You are a former 1987 PSA pilot, that received super seniority at US Airways, who is a perfect example of the "I've got mine" attitude that is the underlying reason that ALPA will be history as a pilots union within the next few years.

You only care about protecting your ability to fly out of the west where you live, lining your own pocket and not giving a thought to how other pilots that you fly with are treated. You got yours so who cares.

Looking forward to flying with you one day.

How ironic that many PSA pilots that benefited from a date of hire seniority are turning around and not supporting the effort for others. If you see a pilot without a yellow lanyard ask him if he is former PSA pilot.

Click here for 924PS posters history

How convenient, there is a AWA history line you can click on your web site.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You are a former 1987 PSA pilot, that received super seniority at US Airways, who is a perfect example of the "I've got mine" attitude that is the underlying reason that ALPA will be history as a pilots union within the next few years.

You only care about protecting your ability to fly out of the west where you live, lining your own pocket and not giving a thought to how other pilots that you fly with are treated. You got yours so who cares.

Looking forward to flying with you one day.

How ironic that many PSA pilots that benefited from a date of hire seniority are turning around and not supporting the effort for others. If you see a pilot without a yellow lanyard ask him if he is former PSA pilot.

Click here for 924PS posters history

How convenient, there is a AWA history line you can click on your web site.

Well whatever, but he is thinking with his big head, which also happens to be level at this point. I'm not so sure about the usapa firebrands. Sure, you can get usapa voted in, make yourself feel good for awhile, but..........

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Not stroking. If you have ever read my posts, I have always said to the effect your participation is up to you. The west posters have always referenced an industry leading contract if we stay with ALPA. I have always questioned that statement that no contract will be industry leading with Nic intact. So the choices are good if we are unified. Bad if we are divided and from my perspective ugly if Nic is included. I'm not being magnanimous when I am asking for your participation. To get a good contract we will have to be unified. Personally I don't thinks it's possible, but I still hold out for some amount of participation.

The vote is coming and ALPA will be gone. Simple as that. The future is up to us.

So as long as I acquiesce to your demands things will be rosy, as long as I change my ways and see it your way my participation is welcome. Or else. Ok, got it.

 

[nostradamus]

There is a behind the scenes effort by awa and alpa reaching out to former PSA pilots high up on the US Airways seniority list. This is ironic because the psa pilots benefited greatly by date of hire seniority. Now they are being asked to use this date of hire seniority gained in their past, to defeat a date of hire seniority effort in the present, to increase their date of hire perks in the future.

True alpa politics at work.

 

[Bear96]

So as long as I acquiesce to your demands things will be rosy, as long as I change my ways and see it your way my participation is welcome. Or else. Ok, got it.

That's the USAPA way.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So how will you feel if Nic is still in place after USAPA is the new CBA? Will the decertification of ALPA have been worth it when when the end result is the same?

The chances of getting an industry leading contract have slipped away while the Nic-USAPA process has unfolded. $100 barrel oil is the new reality. The window of opportunity has closed absent some sweet deal from management to make the next consolidation smoother.

Look forward to years more of LOA93 either way. Management has zero incentive to negotiate new contracts with any labor group. And they know they will continue to exploit a divided group yet again. This time they will be wearing "Seniority Matters" lanyards and USAPA pins, but nothing else will have changed.

I have said many times, I will accept Nicolau if I have to. Under ALPA there is no other choice. Under USAPA there is a chance. I will take my chances. Either way, so long as ALPA is gone. Over the last 6 months many of us have posted the same thing. "So long as ALPA is gone". So yes, the whole effort would be worth it.

We all know how long a sweet deal can last. Force Majeure, bankruptcy or a benevolent MEC. Pick your poison as to how long that "Sweet deal" is going to last.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So as long as I acquiesce to your demands things will be rosy, as long as I change my ways and see it your way my participation is welcome. Or else. Ok, got it.

I never said that acquiescence is required. In fact I predict the MEC meetings to be quite contentious with your participation. But I still want everyone to have an opportunity to participate. Participation can take many forms. IMO You will never get it, but I keep hoping.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

That's the USAPA way.

Not hardly. You obviously have only had legal interactions/discussions on here with one person. With your statement it would seem you have ignored or glossed over many posts of the USAPA supporters who have stated otherwise.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I am a west guy who is considering voting for USAPA.

I have talked with some of our (West MEC) officers and committee members and their feeling is that should USAPA lose the election ALPA national is going to continue to sit on its ass and do nothing but continue to placate the East.

I have felt, and those close to the situation share this view, that ALPA national has always sympathized with the East's position with regards to Nicolau. National will continue to propose commissions, committees, steering groups and other tactics designed to pressure the west into re-negotiating what has already been arbitrated.

ALPA national has held the west back while the east has gained the benefits. We have pilots who sit reserve FO on the 73 and 320 who should be in the left seat of 190s. National has done nothing for the west.

USAPA may or may not last. If they die we may well become teamsters and that is fine with me. Now is probably our best shot at getting rid of ALPA.

We will probably be paying dues to USAPA. Our outside council has told us that we need to be in good standing with USAPA in order to prevail in the DFR suit.

As soon as USAPA acts to negotiate a contract with a seniority list of their own making we will have what our outside counsel has termed "as close to a sure thing as exists in a civil case."

If ALPA remains the bargaining agent the stagnation will probably continue indefinitely. National will never put any East LEC into receivership and Contract 2004/LOA93 will probably be in force for years to come. That or we will be right back here in 12 months with another decertification drive. (It is my understanding that if USAPA wins there is a two year lock before another change of representation election can be held but if ALPA prevails the clock runs out in 12 months.)

At least with USAPA we can leave the stagnation behind and as soon as USAPA acts to harm the west group we will at last be able to move forward and collect damages from USAPA.

The only monkey wrench to the whole thing would be if we are involved in another merger. In that case when airline X's pilot union asks for a seniority list with which to integrate with their own they will be handed the Nic list.

There would be another monkey wrench, a possible career ending monkey wrench, if you ended up in the east river or in a similar situation. Read the letter just out from JC. Thats not a place I'd want to be with usapa. It goes without saying that being in such a situation at all is somewhere I'd rather not be, but especially with only usapa to turn to.

 

[N924PS]

There would be another monkey wrench, a possible career ending monkey wrench, if you ended up in the east river or in a similar situation. Read the letter just out from JC. Thats not a place I'd want to be with usapa. It goes without saying that being in such a situation at all is somewhere I'd rather not be, but especially with only usapa to turn to.

USAPA can't buy that level of representation and support, at any price.

It comes from the blood, sweat and tears of individuals like JC and countless others that answered that call over the history of ALPA. It's a level of expertise and funding that simply cannot appear magically under the auspices of USAPA.

USAPA supporters say that ALPA has failed its members on all counts. I don't think ALPA has ever failed its members in the area of Air Safety. I think JC makes some valid points in his letter. Definitely something to weigh before casting your vote for a new CBA that offers nothing but change as it's mantra.