NMB Speaks: We Have an Election! ALPA/USAPA Topic for 2/19-26

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I find it interesting that you are referring to the 5050 accident and the role of JC and the Alpa safety structure in the investigation of that event. Before I go further, I would ask the following. If you have any doubt as to the veracity of my post, would you accept my offer to get you in touch with JC or any of the other Alpa staff that were personally involved in the aftermath of that tragedy? Any of these gentlemen that were on scene (including JC) would be able to back me up.

Since you are a regular reader of this board, I am sure that you are aware of the recent thread where your highly ethical colleague Aquageen73s declared that the 5050 pilots were guilty of the "treacherous" crime of leaving the scene of an accident. This disgusting lie was met with some amusement by several of your fellow West posters, though I will note that you were not among them. Since the actions of the 5050 crew were done in consultation with Alpa attorneys and investigators (including JC), how does one conclude that the loss of their services would be a negative to our pilot group if the accusations of Aquagreen are true? After all, if JC and the rest of the Alpa safety structure actually encouraged the kind of criminal behavior alleged by your fellow Westies, wouldn't we all be better off without them?

The East pilots already know the history of 5050, and the garbage of your jailhouse lawyer Aquagreen has been emailed far and wide. Sorry, but I don't think Alpa is going to get very far with their JC strategy, and you can thank this website for that.

I never for one second thought that the 5050 crew acted improperly, and no west pilot I am aware of believes any different. If anyone thought they acted criminally they are on that fringe by themselves. I don't know how any of ALPA's efforts will ultimately affect the vote, we will just have to see.

You have to ask though, why would JC bother writing the letter if he didn't believe in what he was saying? A man with a distinguished record of serving his fellow pilots would not write such a letter unless he believed every word, in my opinion. You aren't trying to say he is an ALPA shill are you?

 

[b737fo]

You have yours at the moment and that is seniority that you got as a psa pilot, nicoprite, I am going to enjoy being on a trip with you.

Nice positive post which really contributes to the thread topic. Keep up the good sniping work. :down:

If ALPA was at "fault" for letting Boeing develop a new procedure for the pilots instead of fixing the problem, then where was the SWAPA safety department (if they are so much more successful) in demanding a fix. After all they are one of the largest 737 operators. To blame ALPA without citing the entire group of professional aviators seems a little subjective to me.

 

[velocitymanager]

The seniority, as awarded by the mutually agreed upon arbitrator, in essence, salvages the old USAirways pilot's seniority on a relative basis. No one lost ground except the America West pilots, which slid down on the combined seniority list more than ten percent as compared to their relative standing before the merger.

Now the pilots of the Old USAirways want to throw out a legally binding document because they feel they should be allowed to recover their losses from the downsizing that took place years before the merger was consummated; and the pilots of America West, a viable, growing entity, should be the ones that sacrifice for that recovery. In fact, they have already sacrificed in the form of lost upgrades due to equipment going to the east and a forever stalled contract.

The hardships endured by the east downsizing is undeniable. However, the west has also suffered with a long history of substandard industry wages and zero pension, during the same years the east enjoyed industry leading contracts.

To read the posts and hear whats going around it seems like the east feels it has been morally wronged by the west. I would ask those that feel that way - is it not morally wrong to demand someone to pay for another person's previous misfortune?

The new union will not be able to function without dues from over one third of the pilots.

 

[sharktooth]

<snip of really silly suppositions>
The new union will not be able to function without dues from over one third of the pilots.

Wrong on two counts.

USAPA will not be supporting a massive, pro-ALPA office complex in Washington D.C. with all the perks that go along with it and therefore should be able to match "services" with much less money.

There is this thingy about unions that if you do not pay dues, you go bye-bye. You will, at least, pay a maintenance fee of some sort or be terminated. It has been well documented and has lots of precedent.

Ordinarily, not one east pilot "wants" your job but if you insist on giving it up, well then, whatever is a pilot to do?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Nice positive post which really contributes to the thread topic. Keep up the good sniping work. :down:

If ALPA was at "fault" for letting Boeing develop a new procedure for the pilots instead of fixing the problem, then where was the SWAPA safety department (if they are so much more successful) in demanding a fix. After all they are one of the largest 737 operators. To blame ALPA without citing the entire group of professional aviators seems a little subjective to me.

They had NO CHOICE! All SW has is 737s. SW pilots aren't stupid. Maybe that's why they're at SW. ALPA, however, should have had NO reason not to take a stand to get this issue taken care of. They give major "lip service" to their safety department, but we all know it's all about the cash!

 

[Richard]

I am going to repeat this one time and then start giving time off.

NO PERSONAL ATTACKS OR INSULTS. Nostradamus that means YOU. You may discuss the issue but you may not attack the poster.

The namecalling and insults stop NOW.

 

[tripnic1]

Need some help from the veterans on this board: End_of_ALPA and others, please chime in. This was apparently a post on our webboard that is no longer there?!? How is this possible?!? This seems like a rouge post to me, but I need some clarification: Is USAPA really going to offer a cost neutral contract in order to get the seniority list they want?

You guys that keep track of stuff more than I do, please chime in. Thank you.

top reply quote

Subject: Overturning Nicolau Award
Author: XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Date: 12 Feb 2008 01:28 PM

As many of you know, we have been promising for some time to overturn the Nicolau Award. Our law firm has from the very beginning of this process assured us that this would be “highly, highly, likely†Through a more thorough review of the legal landscape and court precedences we have to come to realize that overturning the award has a slim chance of success.

I know that this will be disheartening news to many of you, particularly when we are so close to the NMB vote allowing us to control our future. Take heart. Our plan to protect your career has now shifted from completely overturning the award, to an approach which would essentially make an end-run around the list. This list will still be out there, however our intention is to make it very hard to ever implement it. This is an approach which really is “highly, highly likely.â€

Some of you may be questioning our change in focus with respect to the Nicolau award. We have had a titanic shift in thinking with regard to our herculean effort to get you the protections you are rightly justified in having concerns. Let me take the time to explain our plan moving forward.

Once we become the bargaining agent for all US Airways pilots, we will take over contract negotiations. As we have reported to you (and supported by past court cases) your seniority does not “belong†to you. Rakestraw v. United demonstrated this (see PHL Roadshow videos). Seniority is a negotiable item, and is only good until the next barganing cycle. ALPA has set this legal precedent itself. In the United case ALPA paid United $200 million to correct the seniority of the pilots that honored the picket lines. Moving the 539 scabs behind the 570 pilots that honored the strike set the standard for the cost associated with renegotiating seniority. $200million divided by 539 pilots comes out to approximately $371,058 per pilot. With approximately 1800 America West pilots, we’ll need about $668 Million to re-order the seniority list. While this may seem like an unrealistic amount of money, please realize that you won’t have to pay for ANY of it.

Doug Parker has shown time and time again that this merger was simply about finances. Well, two can play at that game. You may recall his cost-neutral stance when his negotiators were last at the barganing table. Our plan is simple: give Doug what he wants, and we get what we want. A cost neutral contract will easily save the company $668 million. All that we ask for in return is to order the seniority list on a date of hire basis, with reasonable adjustments made for time of service. True, this will cause SOME reordering of our own seniority list, but I think we can all agree that those of us that loose a little will benefit from the fact that most of us will gain 1800 numbers of furlough protection.

To close out this post, and to further demostrate to you how different USAPA is from ALPA I want to share with you several court summaries that we received from one of our pilot volunteers. I think they demostrate that we really pay attention to input from our pilot group, that we are not so set in our ways that we can’t change direction, and that we truly are a transparent union. Some of the language is not at polished as we strive for in our communications, but I wanted you to see the unfiltered emotion which drives our great movement. When reading these summaries ask yourself this question: “Would ALPA allow information that is critical of itself to be widely distributed?†I think we all know the answer to that question, and that is why we were able to submit over 3000 cards to the NMB. Remember: USAPA is about giving US Airways pilots the right to make a choice!

 

[luvthe9]

"We want any seniority list integration to be fair to pilots at the top, middle, and bottom of the list" said Greg Rizzuto, a spokesman for the Northwest branch of ALPA. " A pilots career is tied completely to his or her seniority ranking. A short-term economic benefit is not worth sacrificing the possibility of advancement".

Quote from NWA ALPA in the USA today article, imagine that

 

[N924PS]

"We want any seniority list integration to be fair to pilots at the top, middle, and bottom of the list" said Greg Rizzuto, a spokesman for the Northwest branch of ALPA. " A pilots career is tied completely to his or her seniority ranking. A short-term economic benefit is not worth sacrificing the possibility of advancement".

Quote from NWA ALPA in the USA today article, imagine that

It will be interesting to see how this unfolds and what the NW/DL definition of "fair" might be.

"Fair" has turned out to be a very subjective word with respect to mergers.

 

[SkyRat]

The seniority, as awarded by the mutually agreed upon arbitrator, in essence, salvages the old USAirways pilot's seniority on a relative basis. No one lost ground except the America West pilots, which slid down on the combined seniority list more than ten percent as compared to their relative standing before the merger.

Now the pilots of the Old USAirways want to throw out a legally binding document because they feel they should be allowed to recover their losses from the downsizing that took place years before the merger was consummated; and the pilots of America West, a viable, growing entity, should be the ones that sacrifice for that recovery. In fact, they have already sacrificed in the form of lost upgrades due to equipment going to the east and a forever stalled contract.

The hardships endured by the east downsizing is undeniable. However, the west has also suffered with a long history of substandard industry wages and zero pension, during the same years the east enjoyed industry leading contracts.

To read the posts and hear whats going around it seems like the east feels it has been morally wronged by the west. I would ask those that feel that way - is it not morally wrong to demand someone to pay for another person's previous misfortune?

The new union will not be able to function without dues from over one third of the pilots.

Excellent Words!!!

 

[767jetz]

As many of you know, we have been promising for some time to overturn the Nicolau Award. Our law firm has from the very beginning of this process assured us that this would be “highly, highly, likelyâ€￾ Through a more thorough review of the legal landscape and court precedences we have to come to realize that overturning the award has a slim chance of success.

I know that this will be disheartening news to many of you, particularly when we are so close to the NMB vote allowing us to control our future. Take heart.

YGTBFKM! Do you mean to tell me that after all the chest thumping and promises, USAPA is NOW saying that ALPA was correct all along and the award will never be overturned?

- So the list will remain and you will get your DOH through a contract that by their own admission is only good until the next contract. Doesn't that mean that if US is involved in a merger again, the Nicolau list still exists? Does USAPA think for a minute that in that case, the next airline you guys merge with will graciously honor your "negotiated" seniority scheme instead of the Nicolau list?

- Doesn't this prove that the only thing USAPA really cared about was forcing an election to grab power (and dues $) and force the will of DOH onto the West? Doesn't it prove that all the talk about "protecting all pilots, East and West" was lipstick on the pig?

- What will the top 500 East pilots who were expecting a significant raise in the next contract do in the voting booth knowing that they will be forced to live with LOA93 until they retire just to save the almighty DOH?

- What will the more reasonable East pilots who were also expecting a significantly better contract do now that they know that "cost neutral" means LOA93 until the East retires off the top end and the West are in the majority again?

Sure does now look like you East guys were given the old "Bait and Switch" routine. This "cost neutral to save DOH until the next contract and do nothing with Nicolau" news is sure going to be disappointing to many East pilots. Probably too late to get those cards back too.

 

[Leonidas]

Need some help from the veterans on this board: End_of_ALPA and others, please chime in. This was apparently a post on our webboard that is no longer there?!? How is this possible?!? This seems like a rouge post to me, but I need some clarification: Is USAPA really going to offer a cost neutral contract in order to get the seniority list they want?

You guys that keep track of stuff more than I do, please chime in. Thank you.

top reply quote

Subject: Overturning Nicolau Award
Author: XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Date: 12 Feb 2008 01:28 PM


This is old news, in fact the west MEC is aware that this is usapa's strategy, Seeham has said all along the "award" can't be touched, and management would be libel if they touched something they have already accepted. Doug is about the money, if it's cheaper to fight the west in court and stick them to the bottom, he will do that. how much are you willing to give up?

 

[b737fo]

They had NO CHOICE! All SW has is 737s. SW pilots aren't stupid. Maybe that's why they're at SW. ALPA, however, should have had NO reason not to take a stand to get this issue taken care of. They give major "lip service" to their safety department, but we all know it's all about the cash!

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that the ALPA safety department doesn't make positive contributions to the airline industry as a whole? So all of the years of work and dedication by safety volunteers including JC were just for the money?

The former Chairman of the NTSB seems to disagree: "Let me use this occasion to send a return note from me to you. I appreciate everything ALPA has done for transportation safety for the last half century, I appreciate all the help we get from ALPA in our investigations – particularly the support provided by Keith Hagy and his staff – and I look forward to working even more closely with ALPA in the future toward our common goal of eliminating aviation accidents." (Jim Hall Aug 19, 1998.)

 

[N924PS]

Is USAPA really going to offer a cost neutral contract in order to get the seniority list they want? [/b]

You guys that keep track of stuff more than I do, please chime in. Thank you.

top reply quote

Subject: Overturning Nicolau Award
Author: XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Date: 12 Feb 2008 01:28 PM


This is old news, in fact the west MEC is aware that this is usapa's strategy, Seeham has said all along the "award" can't be touched, and management would be libel if they touched something they have already accepted. Doug is about the money, if it's cheaper to fight the west in court and stick them to the bottom, he will do that. how much are you willing to give up?

Can any of the USAPA faithful confirm or refute that this is a valid post? Or is this just creative writing by a non-believer.

 

[sharktooth]

Do you mean to tell me that after all the chest thumping and promises, USAPA is NOW saying that ALPA was correct all along and the award will never be overturned?

Nobody from the east wants to risk overturning the "award", exposing themselves to another chance "ruling". Why would anyone from the east want to do that?

I believe from what I have read that this has always been USAPA's position, bury it forever, acknowledge DOH reality and move on.


COMMENT EDITED BY MODERATOR TO DELETE PERSONAL COMMENT