Nwa Posts 2nd Quarter Loss

[magsau]

RTB,

Why do I dislike NWA???? Well I once worked for company that made me ride on you guys wayyyyyy too much. The company paid for full fare tickets on your POS company and I have never ever seen such crappy service. The surly ticket agents, the rude f/a's that treated the pax as an inconvenience to the miserable connections via DTW, MSP or MEM. (DTW I hear is a bit better with the new terminal) But I was a fairly high mileage FF and was treated with great disdain. Perhaps it was the mergers with Republic that fueled the fires of the poor service of the time but I would never buy a ticket on NWA again.

So there you have it. My reason for never wanting to see NWA emerge from the hole that they have put themselves in.

So sayest I, NH/BB. By the way, Happy B-day. You would think someone of your vintage would be able to see the big picture, but perhaps it is just the old age kicking that makes you less than astute to the industry.

Cheers.

 

[mistified]

Likewise, it's pretty funny that an airline as large as AMR still had LESS pension obligations thatn DAL and UAL. Maybe if your pension had been near the industry average, then you'd lost your's to. I guess you're proud to be the industries anchor....pulling down wages and benefits.

[post="284803"][/post]​

Busdrvr
I am not sure I follow you. Are you saying that AA's retirement package was below industry average?
For which employee group do you come to this conclusion? Pilots, Flt Attnd's, Ramp workers??????????????

mistified

 

[Busdrvr]

Busdrvr
I am not sure I follow you. Are you saying that AA's retirement package was below industry average?
For which employee group do you come to this conclusion? Pilots, Flt Attnd's, Ramp workers??????????????

mistified

[post="284871"][/post]​

The aggregate pension obligation for AMR was significantly less than that for UAL (prior to BK) despite more employees, so yes, I'm saying AMR's pensions (in the aggregate) were not as good.

 

[Bigsky]

magsau
It's folks like you that make me want to never participate in any of these forums.
Wishing that NWA tanks taking with it the careers of many outstanding people. How NICE!!!


have a fabulous day

bigsky

 

[magsau]

bidsky,

I really don't wish NWA would fail. I just don't want them to prosper. Especially with characters like RTB and NBNW. Those two have hoped and prayed for the elimination of UAL for quite sometime. Openly in this forum they have campaigned for UAL to cease operations. Those two clowns along with, so sayest he NH/BB are the three stooges of aviation.

I dislike NWA but don't want to see them shutter the place. I hope the mechanics can come to an agreement. The biggest wish I have is that a helping serving of Crow will be spoon fed to RTB, NBNW and NH/BB at some point in the near future. Their vociferous attack of UAL has been none to enjoyable and the irony of the latest events is just too enjoyable.

By the way I still have 100's of thousands of NW miles. I have been getting magazine subscriptions with them since I have vowed never to ride NWA again. Can't go back on my word. Isn't that right NBNW.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

RTB,

Why do I dislike NWA???? Well I once worked for company that made me ride on you guys wayyyyyy too much. The company paid for full fare tickets on your POS company and I have never ever seen such crappy service. The surly ticket agents, the rude f/a's that treated the pax as an inconvenience to the miserable connections via DTW, MSP or MEM. (DTW I hear is a bit better with the new terminal) But I was a fairly high mileage FF and was treated with great disdain. Perhaps it was the mergers with Republic that fueled the fires of the poor service of the time but I would never buy a ticket on NWA again.

So there you have it. My reason for never wanting to see NWA emerge from the hole that they have put themselves in.

So sayest I, NH/BB. By the way, Happy B-day. You would think someone of your vintage would be able to see the big picture, but perhaps it is just the old age kicking that makes you less than astute to the industry.

Cheers.

[post="284866"][/post]​

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

magsau,

I suggest you "sit down" while I AGREE with you on a point !!

I obviously don't share your view of NWA, BUT, I DO respect you for "coming out of the closet" with regard to your views about Big Red !!
It now makes some people here understand you a bit better !!!!!!!!!!!

As far as my "handle" of the present situation of the Industry, I have an "instictive" knowlege of this industry, the likes of, that you "don't know" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1.
I DO NOT want to see ANY hardworking person, of any airline, especially a union one, to EVER lose their job !!

2.
YES, there is a #### load of "one upsmanship" on these boards as we defend our own company(s)

3.
I "wholeheartedly" agree with Glen Tilton, to let the CONSOLIDATION of the legacy's begin TOMORROW, so you ALL can get on with your lives !!!!!!!!!

Though it will NEVER happen, I propose that AA consolidate with NW + AS,
UA with US/HP, and DL with CO, and then let the LLC's "be damned" !!!!

Your thoughts ??

NH/BB's

 

[mistified]

The aggregate pension obligation for AMR was significantly less than that for UAL (prior to BK) despite more employees, so yes, I'm saying AMR's pensions (in the aggregate) were not as good.

[post="284876"][/post]​

How about the pilot group? Was AA's retirement package inferior to the others?

 

[Red Tail Bear]

bidsky,

I really don't wish NWA would fail. I just don't want them to prosper. Especially with characters like RTB and NBNW. Those two have hoped and prayed for the elimination of UAL for quite sometime. Openly in this forum they have campaigned for UAL to cease operations. Those two clowns along with, so sayest he NH/BB are the three stooges of aviation.

I dislike NWA but don't want to see them shutter the place. I hope the mechanics can come to an agreement. The biggest wish I have is that a helping serving of Crow will be spoon fed to RTB, NBNW and NH/BB at some point in the near future. Their vociferous attack of UAL has been none to enjoyable and the irony of the latest events is just too enjoyable.

By the way I still have 100's of thousands of NW miles. I have been getting magazine subscriptions with them since I have vowed never to ride NWA again. Can't go back on my word. Isn't that right NBNW.

[post="284884"][/post]​

Still angry Huh! Magsau. And now resorting to name calling. Maybe you should'nt participate in these forums if a little back and forth debate bothers you that much. I do not wish UAL to be eliminated, but I do wish they would do something other than languish in BK year after year. I do not wish any ill will towards any UA employee either. But I will continue to respond to criticism of NW by employees of BK carriers.

 

[Busdrvr]

Still angry Huh! Magsau. And now resorting to name calling. Maybe you should'nt participate in these forums if a little back and forth debate bothers you that much. I do not wish UAL to be eliminated, but I do wish they would do something other than languish in BK year after year. I do not wish any ill will towards any UA employee either. But I will continue to respond to criticism of NW by employees of BK carriers.

[post="285005"][/post]​

For the record, the employees of UAL don't enjoy "languishing" in BK either. but lets consider some of the reasons UAL is still in BK. Among them is the stupid gamble YOUR management played with YOUR job as the stakes. Had companies like NWA NOT lobbied against the first ATSB application, then UAL would have been given a good bit of time to "fix" itself outside of BK, with wages at a respectable level. Then at the second try, NWA thought UAL dumping it's A plans would be good for the industry, and lobbied against UAL again. Maybe if NWA had been working on it's business plan instead, they wouldn't be in dire straits, hiring up strike breakers. Karma's a b1tch

 

[mistified]

The aggregate pension obligation for AMR was significantly less than that for UAL (prior to BK) despite more employees, so yes, I'm saying AMR's pensions (in the aggregate) were not as good.

[post="284876"][/post]​

BUSDRVR
Maybe you missed it the first time I asked.
I was wondering if you know how the pilots pension plan at AMR compared to UAL's pilots pension plan before 2001?
Was it less? Was AMR also cheaper than the rest of the pack here?

mistified

 

[aafsc]

The aggregate pension obligation for AMR was significantly less than that for UAL (prior to BK) despite more employees, so yes, I'm saying AMR's pensions (in the aggregate) were not as good.

[post="284876"][/post]​

I will agree with you that UAL probably had better pensions than AA. But until AA bought TWA's assets in 2001, UA for a long time was the largest carrier. Additionally they operated 44 747-400s and some 747-200s mostly across the Pacific. Are pilot pensions based on their final earnings? If so, then UAL would naturally have to pay more in pensions because of 747 captain pay rates. How many of their pilots retired from the 747s over the years? Additionally, the TWA transaction added headcount to AA but the TWAers pensions were frozen/terminated by Icahn while TWA was still flying. Imagine what AA's pension liability would have been if the TWAers would have been able to keep accruing their pension benefits until the AA/TWA transaction occured and AA took responsibility for that obligation.

 

[Busdrvr]

BUSDRVR
Maybe you missed it the first time I asked.
I was wondering if you know how the pilots pension plan at AMR compared to UAL's pilots pension plan before 2001?
Was it less? Was AMR also cheaper than the rest of the pack here?

mistified

[post="285036"][/post]​

Let me go over this again, this time more slowly. I'm looking at the aggregate. the total pension obligation for both airlines. On dec 31 2002, the UAL pension obligation was:
$12,673
AMR's was $8,757.

Now if you subtract the TWA folks out of the mix, UAL still had a significantly higher per employee pension obligation. Despite all the BS about UAL's pensions, it is important to not that UAL sonsitantly had at least a billion more in actual pension funds than AMR. The problem wasn't that UAL put too little aside for it's employees when compared to the rest of the industry, the "problem' with UAL's pensions is that them employees at some of UAL's rivals were promised pensions of considerably less value.

 

[mistified]

Let me go over this again, this time more slowly. I'm looking at the aggregate. the total pension obligation for both airlines. On dec 31 2002, the UAL pension obligation was:
$12,673
AMR's was $8,757.

Now if you subtract the TWA folks out of the mix, UAL still had a significantly higher per employee pension obligation. Despite all the BS about UAL's pensions, it is important to not that UAL sonsitantly had at least a billion more in actual pension funds than AMR. The problem wasn't that UAL put too little aside for it's employees when compared to the rest of the industry, the "problem' with UAL's pensions is that them employees at some of UAL's rivals were promised pensions of considerably less value.

[post="285059"][/post]​

Let me ask you the question again, this time more slowly.
I am asking you to compare UAL's pilot pension obligation to AMR's pilot pension obligation. PERIOD!
NOT THE AGGREGATE OF ALL EMPLOYEES.

 

[eolesen]

I think it's even simpler than just pilot pay rates....

As retiree populations go, UAL simply has more living retirees than AA does. UA has been a large company since the 1970's, whereas AA didn't really become large until the mid 1980's.

You've also got a somewhat large component of AMR which doesn't have a pension at all -- AMR Eagle is only a 401K match as far as I recall, and both management and agents/res were given the option to have their pensions frozen and go into a 401K match. Newhire management and agents/res since 2000 have gone into the 401K match without any option to take the pension.

You also have a large number of people at AMR who were moved over to Sabre and EDS in 1998 -- I believe their pension obligations went with them to the spun off company (they too wound up with a frozen pension and a 401K match for all future contributons).

The problem wasn't that UAL put too little aside for it's employees when compared to the rest of the industry, the "problem' with UAL's pensions is that them employees at some of UAL's rivals were promised pensions of considerably less value.

The problem wasn't that UAL's rivals were promised pensions of less value. The problem as I see it was UAL promising more than they could afford to pay in the long run.

There's an article in the NYTimes this weekend which details what may be behind UAL's problems -- instead of investing their pension funds in bonds (i.e. secure investments), UAL decided to invest in the stock market....

To make matters worse, you have a situation where UAL knew the fund was heading south, yet they continued to make promises of pension improvements in their pre-bankruptcy pilot contract and didn't follow thru with putting cash into the funds.

 

[mistified]

I think it's even simpler than just pilot pay rates....

As retiree populations go, UAL simply has more living retirees than AA does. UA has been a large company since the 1970's, whereas AA didn't really become large until the mid 1980's.

You've also got a somewhat large component of AMR which doesn't have a pension at all -- AMR Eagle is only a 401K match as far as I recall, and both management and agents/res were given the option to have their pensions frozen and go into a 401K match. Newhire management and agents/res since 2000 have gone into the 401K match without any option to take the pension.

You also have a large number of people at AMR who were moved over to Sabre and EDS in 1998 -- I believe their pension obligations went with them to the spun off company (they too wound up with a frozen pension and a 401K match for all future contributons).
The problem wasn't that UAL's rivals were promised pensions of less value. The problem as I see it was UAL promising more than they could afford to pay in the long run.

There's an article in the NYTimes this weekend which details what may be behind UAL's problems -- instead of investing their pension funds in bonds (i.e. secure investments), UAL decided to invest in the stock market....

To make matters worse, you have a situation where UAL knew the fund was heading south, yet they continued to make promises of pension improvements in their pre-bankruptcy pilot contract and didn't follow thru with putting cash into the funds.

[post="285101"][/post]​

Good points ModerAAtor.
What started my interest into this thread was the statement by Busdrvr:

"Likewise, it's pretty funny that an airline as large as AMR still had LESS pension obligations thatn DAL and UAL. Maybe if your pension had been near the industry average, then you'd lost your's to. I guess you're proud to be the industries anchor....pulling down wages and benefits."


I am still curious about a pilot to pilot pension obligation comparision.
Did AMR" go on the cheap here" also? From what I have heard they have always had one of the most generous pilot retirement package in the industry.