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sastal said:
I agree with you 100 percent. People in the U.S. always mention England when criticizing socialized medicine. There are many European countries in which I would (and do) prefer to go for healthcare than the U.S.
Norway, France, and even Italy all have excellent care, and you do get to choose whom you want to see. With as good of an insurance policy as I have at UA, I always have had to wait months to see a specialist in the States. If people had to pay for their own care in the U.S., I am sure the story about how wonderful our capitalistic society is would change (lose that card and let the "Cobra" suck the life out of you, buddy). And let's not discuss on this thread the cost of drugs in the U.S., either.
[post="262687"][/post]​

Excellent post. I asked a coworker who lived in Canada and whose mother is Canadian about their medical system. He told me that they do pay higher taxes but that everyone is covered and gets the same quality of care; from the richest man in Canada to the homeless person who lives under the bridge. It is been proven in study after study that Americans pay the highest by far for medical per capita than any other country yet the quality is below that of Europe and Canada and not everyone in the US is covered. MY coworker says that they tell lies about the Canadian system because the insurance and drug companies make a huge fortune in this country. If they spent $1 billion to defeat Clinton's proposed plan, that should give you a clue as to how much of a fortune they make. I believe that Borescope is an AMT for UAL. If UAL does go under and he loses his medical insurance his views regarding our "wonderful capitalist" medical system would probably change pretty quick.
 
Since oil has diverged into a discussion into cons/lib, and even medical care, I sat back at enjoyed the posts of others before deciding to chime in.

First, one must start from a philosophical understanding of the what we consider the extreme "leftist" and "hard right" positions.

On the right is the belief that the optimum productivity level (a "pareto" optimum, where for any member of society to be better off, someone else has to by definition be worse off) is one that comes from leaving the producers alone. No taxes, no regulation.

On the left is the view that if we just divided everything up, we'd all be so much better off. This view seems to imply that no matter the level of taxation, or government transfers of wealth, that everyone will continue to work as hard as before, both the "rich" who's getting fleeced, and the "poor" who finds that the government will provide for them even if they don't work.

In U.S. politics, both parties are near the middle, but are nuanced to one side or another.

Now on "medical care".
1. What makes you entitled to the same medical care as me? What entitles me to Bill Gates medical care? Why stop there? Poor people probably have lower survivability in an accident than the rich because of inferior older vehicles. Should we have our government buy everyone a new cadillac to ensure we all have the same level of auto safety? Then again, budgetary constraints would dictate we all get a Yugo.
2. Do you really think Canada’s medical system is a good as ours? My brother in-law and sister live in Canada. The BIL recently injured a knee. In Canada, he was to wait 3months to get his knee repaired, and then, the result of the surgery would be a fused knee and the end to any athletics. Instead, he went to Washington State within two weeks and after a simple scope, is back running and biking. My sisters biggest gripe about Canada is the medical system. DYK that in the UK, many people are now flying to India for surgery instead of waiting? EVERYONE who remains on the list for heart surgery WILL get it in the UK, if they survive long enough.
CARE MUST BE RATIONED. In countries with socialized medicine, the government rations it. Recently, my daughter was diagnosed with a tumor in one of her legs. It was thought that the tumor would eventually go away. I demanded that we see a specialist. I MADE THE CHOICE. Had we not see the specialist and had surgery, she would have possibly lost her leg. Keep in mind; many of the “cheap Canadian medications†are made in the U.S. Without the profit motive, medical research and new drug treatments would slow to a crawl.
3. How do we fix the U.S. system? Easy. One our biggest problems is that the person getting the service is NOT the person paying for it. Will you “skimp†on service if I’m the one paying the bill? Will you choose generics if they are priced the same (via your medical plan) as the real thing? The key is to allow people to have REAL MSA’s that don’t require the money to be spent every year. If you RATION your own care and end the year with your entire MSA intact, then you should be able to roll it over to a retirement account. You could then be covered VERY cheaply with Cat care. Unfortunately, Kennedy thinks that’s a “taxcut for the richâ€. If we want lower healthcare costs, we need to force people to make the decision if a belly ache is worth a visit to the OR. If we want lower drug costs, we must have a plan that allows people to benefit from choosing a cheaper generic of even another alternative. Do you need the latest and greatest pain reliever if Tylenol will do?

As to poor people who couldn’t afford to buy a good plan, I say BS. We make choices. You can buy the insurance yourself. They chose not to. They took the risk. Not me.
 
Busdrvr said:
Since oil has diverged into a discussion into cons/lib, and even medical care, I sat back at enjoyed the posts of others before deciding to chime in.

First, one must start from a philosophical understanding of the what we consider the extreme "leftist" and "hard right" positions.

On the right is the belief that the optimum productivity level (a "pareto" optimum, where for any member of society to be better off, someone else has to by definition be worse off) is one that comes from leaving the producers alone. No taxes, no regulation.

On the left is the view that if we just divided everything up, we'd all be so much better off. This view seems to imply that no matter the level of taxation, or government transfers of wealth, that everyone will continue to work as hard as before, both the "rich" who's getting fleeced, and the "poor" who finds that the government will provide for them even if they don't work.

In U.S. politics, both parties are near the middle, but are nuanced to one side or another.

Now on "medical care".
1. What makes you entitled to the same medical care as me? What entitles me to Bill Gates medical care? Why stop there? Poor people probably have lower survivability in an accident than the rich because of inferior older vehicles. Should we have our government buy everyone a new cadillac to ensure we all have the same level of auto safety? Then again, budgetary constraints would dictate we all get a Yugo.
2. Do you really think Canada’s medical system is a good as ours? My brother in-law and sister live in Canada. The BIL recently injured a knee. In Canada, he was to wait 3months to get his knee repaired, and then, the result of the surgery would be a fused knee and the end to any athletics. Instead, he went to Washington State within two weeks and after a simple scope, is back running and biking. My sisters biggest gripe about Canada is the medical system. DYK that in the UK, many people are now flying to India for surgery instead of waiting? EVERYONE who remains on the list for heart surgery WILL get it in the UK, if they survive long enough.
CARE MUST BE RATIONED. In countries with socialized medicine, the government rations it. Recently, my daughter was diagnosed with a tumor in one of her legs. It was thought that the tumor would eventually go away. I demanded that we see a specialist. I MADE THE CHOICE. Had we not see the specialist and had surgery, she would have possibly lost her leg. Keep in mind; many of the “cheap Canadian medications†are made in the U.S. Without the profit motive, medical research and new drug treatments would slow to a crawl.
3. How do we fix the U.S. system? Easy. One our biggest problems is that the person getting the service is NOT the person paying for it. Will you “skimp†on service if I’m the one paying the bill? Will you choose generics if they are priced the same (via your medical plan) as the real thing? The key is to allow people to have REAL MSA’s that don’t require the money to be spent every year. If you RATION your own care and end the year with your entire MSA intact, then you should be able to roll it over to a retirement account. You could then be covered VERY cheaply with Cat care. Unfortunately, Kennedy thinks that’s a “taxcut for the richâ€. If we want lower healthcare costs, we need to force people to make the decision if a belly ache is worth a visit to the OR. If we want lower drug costs, we must have a plan that allows people to benefit from choosing a cheaper generic of even another alternative. Do you need the latest and greatest pain reliever if Tylenol will do?

As to poor people who couldn’t afford to buy a good plan, I say BS. We make choices. You can buy the insurance yourself. They chose not to. They took the risk. Not me.
[post="262819"][/post]​
Thanks for your dissertation on the subject of oil?

Your pampas socially disconnected retort speaks volumes of the dysfunctional humanistic stance of our country. Regardless of the facts that you are confronted with, you continually take the ‘Rush Limbaugh’ approach in ignorance of your surroundings.

Your ‘self impressive’ intelligence and questionably ‘subjective’ analysis speaks well of your position.

JMHO,
You are an arrogant, and ‘small’ self centered individual that lack compassion and human understanding.

You are the epitome of why some people hate pilots!!

JMHO,
UT
 
UAL_TECH said:
Thanks for your dissertation on the subject of oil?

Your pampas socially disconnected retort speaks volumes of the dysfunctional humanistic stance of our country.  Regardless of the facts that you are confronted with, you continually take the ‘Rush Limbaugh’ approach in ignorance of your surroundings.

Your ‘self impressive’ intelligence and questionably ‘subjective’ analysis speaks well of your position.

JMHO,
You are an arrogant, and ‘small’ self centered individual that lack compassion and human understanding.

You are the epitome of why some people hate pilots!!

JMHO,
UT
[post="262822"][/post]​

For the record, I highly doubt I'm "socially disconnected". my parents were the first generation on both sides of the family to finish high School, and I'm the first (along with my sister) to finish college (I'm working on a second masters). my mother has 8 brothers. every single one served his country honorably (enlisted), and 4 were career NCO's. My only other sibling (my big brother) is a truck driver. If I did the math, I'd be willing to bet 90% of my cousins (and my brother) live in homes that arrived on wheels. I'm a very lucky person. no doubt about it. I was lucky enough to "run with the right crowd". Instead of smoking on the back porch, I played sports. I knew what I wanted to become. I knew about what it paid, and what lifestyle I could give my family from those efforts. While you were smoking the tires on your new IROC Z-28, impressing the cigarette smoking halter topped bimbo's in the Winn Dixie parking lot and throwing down a half rack of PBR, content with the life YOU chose, i was sucking it up preparing for another exam, writting another paper, and reading another book. And to get it done, I didn't take a DIME from my parents. you made your choice, i made mine.

Now i ask you. should I give up appropriate care for my family because YOU chose your path? Who is the arrogant one? The person who delayed gratification, made some tough choices, and chose my course, or someone who was unwilling to put the effort in and now expects me to subsidize them?

I base my positions on facts. you base your's on blind emotion. you're on here enamoured with the wonderful socialized ways of Europe. I'll ask you to do the research. What is the unemployment rate in the EU? What is the take home pay of the average worker? What is the "per capita GDP"? How many cars does the average family own? what is the growth rate of the EU economy? how many Sqft of home per person in the EU? Have you ever thought that if you merely equilized YOUR lifestyle, with the lifestyle of the average Canadian or European citizen, you could afford to buy additional healthcare far superior to anything they have to offer?

But that isn't what it's about is it? when you look at some guy driving around in a nice new SLC (or better yet the guy I saw driving around in a DB-9 the other day :up: ), do you think "dirty SOB keeping the worker down"? Or do you see a guy that likely worked his @ss off for year after year? Maybe a guy who had a great idea, something that made life better for all of us, and was willing to risk it all to bring it to market? Do you want to emulate him or hang him?

Maybe that's why you're bitter and I'm not. Maybe you see the current situation and see no way out. maybe you feel you can't move on to better things and a brighter future. Sorry, I'm differant. I see new opportunities. I look at the past few years as a test. some challenges to overcome. Ten years from now, I'll look back and say "thank god I left flying". What will you be saying?

Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get on with it. If you want a better life, then make it happen. I'm not going to do it for you, nor should you expect me to. But If easy is what you want, I'm wondering why you haven't already applied for citizenship in Canada. If not there, they have a social utopia with free healthcare and education in Cuba. It's comical to hear a liberal accuse others of "lacking compassion", especially since I've given more to charity EVERY YEAR for the last 15, than former VP Gore gave in his first year as VP. It's easy to be compassionate with someone elses checkbook. Funny, those who accuse others of lacking "compassion" typically do so with their hand out.

but one more time, please tell me the "facts" I've ignored to come to my conclusion.
 
Busdrvr said:
Maybe that's why you're bitter and I'm not. 
[post="262826"][/post]​

😀

YGBSM! That was the most bitter post I've read in a while!
 
aafsc said:
All the AMTs get on here and complain about what the airline CEOs make and call them crooks
[post="262755"][/post]​
You might want to check your facts, "ALL" implies that everyone does that. As I said in an eariler post, I don't care that CEO's get the compensation they get. If I wanted to be in that group I would have chose a different career path. Maybe you should move in a different direction since it is obvious you are lacking enough money to live your life like the "Rich and Famous".

aafsc said:
By the way, you did not answer my question. How would you feel if it was YOUR child?
[post="262755"][/post]​
Certainly I would be upset, but on the other hand I wouldn't go on some airline board and complain about it. That gets you nowhere. If your child is in need of medical care you will do what you need to get that child help. Pretty simple isn't it?
 
"Now i ask you. should I give up appropriate care for my family because YOU chose your path? Who is the arrogant one? The person who delayed gratification, made some tough choices, and chose my course, or someone who was unwilling to put the effort in and now expects me to subsidize them?"


Bus,

Good post :up: Although I think you hit a nerve with UALTech. :lol: This paragraph says it all. Congratulations to you for your persistance in your career path.
 
I give one example out of MANY of how people pay their premiums and are denied healthcare in the name of corporate greed and Busdrvr and Borescope think that someone wants to take from them or that I am bitter about my career choice. My point is that since the financial/insurance industry have taken over the medical field, profits come before the well being of the patient. The parents of that boy PAID their premiums and when they needed the service, they got nothing; resulting in their son being a vegetable. Now who will be held accountable for this? The HMO or the CEO? Are you kidding? Bush was pushing for a law in Texas where you can not sue health insurers. Busdrvr or Borescope stated that the poor don't buy insurance out of choice. Do you know how much health insurance would cost for a family of four who is at or below the poverty level? The premiums would exceed the gross income of the family.
 
Borescope said:
"Now i ask you. should I give up appropriate care for my family because YOU chose your path? Who is the arrogant one? The person who delayed gratification, made some tough choices, and chose my course, or someone who was unwilling to put the effort in and now expects me to subsidize them?"
Bus,

Good post :up: Although I think you hit a nerve with UALTech. :lol: This paragraph says it all. Congratulations to you for your persistance in your career path.
[post="262909"][/post]​
Since when does persuing an AMT career not require effort? Aren't you an AMT? According to Busdrvr, you were "unwilling to put the effort in" to become more than just an AMT, therefore you are not entitled to healthcare. If I was an AMT, I would take that as an insult.Typical pilot! Yes Busdrvr, you put years into your pilot training but you made considerably more in compensation over the years (salary, A plan, B plan, etc. and if UA makes it out of BK the pilots will get half a billion in bonds to help replace their pension as to where the other UA employees will get squat)when compared to the AMT. And the day may come when you "lose it all" and then someone will be complaining that they are subsidizing you.
 
Borescope said:
You might want to check your facts, "ALL" implies that everyone does that. As I said in an eariler post, I don't care that CEO's get the compensation they get. If I wanted to be in that group I would have chose a different career path. Maybe you should move in a different direction since it is obvious you are lacking enough money to live your life like the "Rich and Famous".

Certainly I would be upset, but on the other hand I wouldn't go on some airline board and complain about it. That gets you nowhere. If your child is in need of medical care you will do what you need to get that child help. Pretty simple isn't it?
[post="262908"][/post]​
Unless the doctor, under pressure from the HMO, said nothing about having a CAT Scan/MRI being needed. A lot of doctors do submit to the demands of HMOs to lower cost (treatment) in any way possible. In fact, HMOs give the doctors a bonus if they can keep their expenses (treatment) below a certain amount. In effect, the doctor is paid NOT to treat you.
 
Shouldn't the title of this thread be "aafsc worries about sprialing health care costs". You need to complain to someone like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton they may actually be able to organize a march in support of your cause :up: Sorry about the little kid, but I blame that on the parents. I've had time when someone in my family needed care and was denied, even though I paid insurance premiums. Did I come on here and whine about it? No. Go out and spend the money and get what test you need. Someone didn't read what is or isn't covered before they signed up.:shock: Next time they will be a little more careful.

Now what do we need to know about Oil? 😛
 
Borescope said:
Shouldn't the title of this thread be "aafsc worries about sprialing health care costs". You need to complain to someone like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton they may actually be able to organize a march in support of your cause :up: Sorry about the little kid, but I blame that on the parents. I've had time when someone in my family needed care and was denied, even though I paid insurance premiums. Did I come on here and whine about it? No. Go out and spend the money and get what test you need. Someone didn't read what is or isn't covered before they signed up.:shock: Next time they will be a little more careful.

Now what do we need to know about Oil? 😛
[post="262944"][/post]​

Thank God I am healthy. Maybe they did not have the money to do the test or the HMO controlled doctor lied to them. These people were defruaded by an HMO and Bush does not want them to be held accountable. IT is attitudes like yours that allow them to get away with this. If it was my kid, I wouldn't need Jackson or Sharpton, I would get Smith and Wesson and put a few rounds in the head of that CEO and the doctor also if he lied.
 
Do you know how much health insurance would cost for a family of four who is at or below the poverty level? The premiums would exceed the gross income of the family.

$196 a month for a Catastrophic care plan with a $1,000,000 lifetime max and a $10,000 deductable. similar cost for a $5,000 deductable plan (non-smoker of course, but then again, it's like my fault you smoke so you should get the same rates as everyone else.... 🙄 )

but since you brought up the 'poverty level' consumer, well, their healthcare is FFFFFFFFFRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

http://www.healthinsuranceinfo.net/co05.html


Additionally, there are other taxpayer subsidized programs for people making near double the poverty rate (which means a first year UAL pilot with a family of 4 would meet the income test).


The parents of that boy PAID their premiums and when they needed the service, they got nothing; resulting in their son being a vegetable. Now who will be held accountable for this? The HMO or the CEO?

Unless the doctor, under pressure from the HMO, said nothing about having a CAT Scan/MRI being needed. A lot of doctors do submit to the demands of HMOs to lower cost (treatment) in any way possible.

considering an MRI would have supposedly saved this kid, tell me, what is the wait for an MRI or Cat scan in the UK or Canada? Who do you sue if you die waiting? Do you think the government could afford to ration healthcare AND pay judgements? LMAO 🙄
 
aafsc said:
Thank God I am healthy. Maybe they did not have the money to do the test or the HMO controlled doctor lied to them. These people were defruaded by an HMO and Bush does not want them to be held accountable. IT is attitudes like yours that allow them to get away with this. If it was my kid, I wouldn't need Jackson or Sharpton, I would get Smith and Wesson and put a few rounds in the head of that CEO and the doctor also if he lied.
[post="263037"][/post]​

not in the UK, they can't have those evil things........(smith and Wessons)
 
Busdrvr said:
not in the UK, they can't have those evil things........(smith and Wessons)
[post="263057"][/post]​
[/quote
But they do have them in Canada.
 

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