Ok, Let's Say Nw Goes On Strike..

[Hopeful]

Who needs the TWU? 99.9% of the working population does not belong to the TWU yet they have jobs. In fact the average worker who is not a TWU member earns more than the average TWU member and they dont have to fork over two hours pay per month either.

[post="290336"][/post]​

Oh, but don't forget the wonderful pay and benfits, flight priviliges, healtchare that the TWU got for us!

 

[Bob Owens]

Does the fact that AA would be, at best, half the size it is today without B scale matter at all to you?

[post="290362"][/post]​

No.


Because the industry would have grown regardless of the fortune of any one company.

How do we benifit from AA growing instead of some other carrier? Especially if we have to work for less in order to fuel that growth?

If AA didnt hire the people they did somebody else would have. The race to the bottom doesnt benifit any of us.

 

[Bob Owens]

Oh, but don't forget the wonderful pay and benfits, flight priviliges, healtchare that the TWU got for us!

[post="290384"][/post]​

Sorry I'm not aware of any of those things.

 

[biztraveller29]

NO other union at Northwest nor anywhere else is supporting the AMFA strikers. Doesn't this kind of tell everyone that unionism is dead? Or, if not dead, at least comatose?

There are too many suppliers, barriers to entry are too low, and barriers to exit are too high (ch. 11). Until the economic equation balances itself out, unions are likely to be on the short end of the stick.

 

[eolesen]

NO other union at Northwest nor anywhere else is supporting the AMFA strikers.

[post="290928"][/post]​

Now, that's not entirely true... the UPS pilots are refusing to fly NWA cargo, and there are reports of other unions helping out those on the picket lines.

Doesn't this kind of tell everyone that unionism is dead? Or, if not dead, at least comatose?

[post="290928"][/post]​

I really don't see unionism as dead.

I do think we're seeing that the mainstream labor movement was more than willing to turn their back on what others have called a radical organization, and that's a first as far as I can tell. Aside from how management prepared for this strike, the way that other unions have responded has all the makings of a case study for a labor relations class....

 

[FA Mikey]

NO other union at Northwest nor anywhere else is supporting the AMFA strikers. Doesn't this kind of tell everyone that unionism is dead? Or, if not dead, at least comatose?

There are too many suppliers, barriers to entry are too low, and barriers to exit are too high (ch. 11). Until the economic equation balances itself out, unions are likely to be on the short end of the stick.

[post="290928"][/post]​

Teamsters also will not deliver or pick up NWA supplies or cargo if there is a picket line at the facility.

Just because you dont see people standing there front and center, doesnt mean people are not out there helping and supporting NWA mechanics.

 

[biztraveller29]

Teamsters also will not deliver or pick up NWA supplies or cargo if there is a picket line at the facility.

Just because you dont see people standing there front and center, doesnt mean people are not out there helping and supporting NWA mechanics.

[post="290944"][/post]​

NW planes are flying with NW pilots and NW f/a's, and being serviced by IAM ground crews. That's great that UPS pilots won't fly NW cargo (will it just go to FedEx?), and that teamsters won't deliver, but when the airline is still flying because of its other unionized groups, that can hardly be a good omen for unionism.

I mean, look at what happened to BA when the food services company fired some of their own union employees! BA's ground crews ground that company to a halt! Why isn't that happening at NW? It seems the other unions are running scared.

 

[eolesen]

The food service employees at GG and the ground crews at BA were from the same union.

I'm sure AMFA at other airlines would love to walk out, but sympathy strikes just don't occur in the US anymore.

 

[aafsc]

NW planes are flying with NW pilots and NW f/a's, and being serviced by IAM ground crews. That's great that UPS pilots won't fly NW cargo (will it just go to FedEx?), and that teamsters won't deliver, but when the airline is still flying because of its other unionized groups, that can hardly be a good omen for unionism.

I mean, look at what happened to BA when the food services company fired some of their own union employees! BA's ground crews ground that company to a halt! Why isn't that happening at NW? It seems the other unions are running scared.

[post="290951"][/post]​

I don't think it is because the other unions are running scared. This is a very complex situation right now at NW. A large part of it is that 53% of the AMTs there voted to leave the IAM and go to AMFA. Now you have the union bosses at the IAM pi$$ed off at AMFA for taking money (dues) from their coffers. That is why there is so much animosity. It also did not help when the AMFA supporters called the ramp service people "ramp apes, knuckle draggers, and coattail riders" and said that their AMT skills alone could get them the compensation they felt they deserved. So the IAM is basically saying to AMFA, "OK, stand alone and prove that your 'strength in skill' approach works. You said you did not need us, now here is your opportunity prove it." Read De Pace's letter. What NW is doing now they planned 18 months ago and are now executing the final stage of their plan. In my opinion, this thing could go either way.

 

[Bob Owens]

The food service employees at GG and the ground crews at BA were from the same union.

I'm sure AMFA at other airlines would love to walk out, but sympathy strikes just don't occur in the US anymore.

[post="290957"][/post]​

Thats because even though the RLA allows it corrupt Judges that are in the pockets of airlines decide that they are above the Law and slap them with injunctions.

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't think it is because the other unions are running scared. This is a very complex situation right now at NW. A large part of it is that 53% of the AMTs there voted to leave the IAM and go to AMFA. Now you have the union bosses at the IAM pi$$ed off at AMFA for taking money (dues) from their coffers. That is why there is so much animosity. It also did not help when the AMFA supporters called the ramp service people "ramp apes, knuckle draggers, and coattail riders" and said that their AMT skills alone could get them the compensation they felt they deserved. So the IAM is basically saying to AMFA, "OK, stand alone and prove that your 'strength in skill' approach works. You said you did not need us, now here is your opportunity prove it." Read De Pace's letter. What NW is doing now they planned 18 months ago and are now executing the final stage of their plan. In my opinion, this thing could go either way.

[post="290963"][/post]​

And if they are successful what do you think will happen to the IAM?



Sure the IAM will give the company pretty much anything they want but maybe the company will decide to just get rid of them anyway. If they decide to bust the IAM and the IAM calls for a strike do you think that the members, after watching the mechanic get screwed will strike? No way, they will cross en-mass. They know that they will not have any moral high ground after doing scab work. The pilots wont help, if anything the average Rank and File pilot has a lot more kinship with mechanics than fleet workers. If they didnt help the mechanics they sure as hell wont help them, AFL-CIO affiliation be damned.

Do you think that mechs are the only ones who used derogatory terms? If thats the IAMs excuse for scabbing its pretty pathetic.

 

[aafsc]

And if they are successful what do you think will happen to the IAM?
Sure the IAM will give the company pretty much anything they want but maybe the company will decide to just get rid of them anyway. If they decide to bust the IAM and the IAM calls for a strike do you think that the members, after watching the mechanic get screwed will strike? No way, they will cross en-mass. They know that they will not have any moral high ground after doing scab work. The pilots wont help, if anything the average Rank and File pilot has a lot more kinship with mechanics than fleet workers. If they didnt help the mechanics they sure as hell wont help them, AFL-CIO affiliation be damned.

Do you think that mechs are the only ones who used derogatory terms? If thats the IAMs excuse for scabbing its pretty pathetic.

[post="291054"][/post]​

My point is if the IAM was to strike they should all go out at once; ramp, airport agents, and res agents-everyone who is IAM. At US Air the unions gave the company everything it wanted in exchange for a buyout. This allowed US to replace their employees (if they could find enough new hires willing to work for crap) over time and still their operation was/is a cluster@@@@. Imagine all the delays and only a handful of management people at the counters and res offices to try to reacomodate hundreds of thousands of people. If all the IAM walked it would be an immediate disaster for NW. I would think that if the IAM saw that NW was not being reasonable in negotiating with them and there was no hope and had nothing to lose then they would do the right thing.

 

[Bob Owens]

My point is if the IAM was to strike they should all go out at once; ramp, airport agents, and res agents-everyone who is IAM. At US Air the unions gave the company everything it wanted in exchange for a buyout. This allowed US to replace their employees (if they could find enough new hires willing to work for crap) over time and still their operation was/is a cluster@@@@. Imagine all the delays and only a handful of management people at the counters and res offices to try to reacomodate hundreds of thousands of people. If all the IAM walked it would be an immediate disaster for NW. I would think that if the IAM saw that NW was not being reasonable in negotiating with them and there was no hope and had nothing to lose then they would do the right thing.

[post="291087"][/post]​

I believe at Continental the IAM had the same setup only they also had the mechs, yet because the pilots crossed Lorenzo handled the walkout. A short time later he also crushed the pilots. So the IAMs broad scope of workers does not leave them any safer than the mechanics.

Clearly if workers are to hold their own they need broader coalitions, that does not automatically mean that they must have the same representative, they just must support each other.In other words "act like unions".

NWA spent 18 months planning for the mechanics strike. How long do you think they would need to set up for an IAM strike?Its common knowledge in this industry that if you have your mechanics and your pilots you have your airline. And there are even more laid off agents and clerks than mechanics.

You are correct in that should the IAM go out the immediate impact would be the most severe, if they caught NWA unprepared, however after a day or two things would start to get better. With mechanics its the opposite, the impact gets greater with time, up to a certyain point. EAL never recovered. Continental went BK twice. Todays Continental mechanics are once again unionized-Teamsters, the TWU just failed to unionize its Fleet Workers.

If the two groups worked together they would be a more formidable force, however as Lorenzo proved at Continental not an impregnable one. However working together does not mean that the mechanics must give up their autonomy because as we see with the TWU that can lead to a tyranny of the majority where mechanics have no voice such as when mechanics lost R&D and Deicing to their own "union brothers" and could do nothing about it. The TWU did not care that we lost the work because they saw no loss in dues. The transfer of work was a concession with no credit for the mechanics and a gain for Fleet. Despite the fact that Fleet has been stealing our work I would have honored a Fleet picket line. I would not let disagreements between us over the union make me an agent of the company in destroying another union or its members. Even if we have differences over unions we are still on the same side, or should be.

When NWA takes the IAM on they will have their mechanics, pilots and flight attendants. When they took on AMFA they were not sure of what they would have, now they know. Like I said rank and file pilots feel more of a professional kinship with the mechanics than other workers. If they did not walk for the mechs they will not walk for anyone else either. Even if ALPA voices support the Rank & File will not support a walk out. The PFAA is considered an outcast by the AFL-CIO so they wont support the IAM either,and of course the mechanics are already scabs and should they reach a settlement with AMFA the IAM would most certianly be in no position to expect any help from AMFA after their behavior.

This is not meant to be a put down but of all the major job classifications Fleet service is the easiest to contract out. The fact is the available pool of labor with the skills required for the IAM represented positions at NWA is very, very large. Thats makes them easier to replace, not easy, but easier than mechanics even though they are a larger group.

How hard of a time did the AA have contracting out cabin service?

Its also the most cost effective since. A high turnover in fleet is the most acceptable because of the low amount of training invested. High turnover in fleet keeps wages and benifit costs lower because the lower skill requirements makes recruitment less expensive.

NWAs agent sent cards offering $32/hr to every mechanic across the country, all they got from the 300,000,000 or so people in the country was 1900 scabs. They could get that many replacement in Texas alone with an ad in the paper.

NWA had to take these scabs and train them for weeks. Flying them in from all around the country and putting them up in hotel rooms providing meals and pay while training them. All they would do with Fleet is contract with Swissport or some other Service provider to prepare to pick up their work. Part timers would be offereed more hours and full timers would be offered OT. If that was not enough they would simply hire more people locally and spread them out through all their operations so that they would have enough experienced workers to keep the new hires productive.

A fleet worker probably reaches maximum effeciency and productivity way way before he reaches top pay. So that means from the companies position after a certain point they are paying more but recieve no additional benifit. I'll be the first to admit that Fleet peforms very important and difficult work, its a hard job, I've done it, but if you take a Junior Fleet service clerk with one year on the job and compare his output to a regular fleet service clerk with 20 years on the job the pay rates are hugely different but the output is not.

With mechanics even though their physical ability may diminish over time their experience and knowledge becomes more of an assett than their back. The ability to return an aircraft to service as quick as possible is where his value lies. Over time, long after he has reached top pay, he becomes more of an assett to the operation.

When EAL and Pan Am went out of business AA and other carriers even hired mechanics who were well into their 60s. Why? Because they brought years of experience and knowledge with them. I dont recall seeing AA hire many elderly fleet service workers when those carriers closed their doors.

Many years ago I worked for Capitol Airways they only employed Pilots, mechanics, Flight Attendants and a few gate agents, they contracted out ALL of fleet service. There were drawbacks as the service that these subcontractors provided was inferior to that of the majors with their in house fleet workers but today cost seems to be the only factor.

The fact is that the IAM leadership made a stupid move motivated by spite and revenge instead of common sense. Some in the field see this as there have been reports of NWA Fleet service Crew Chiefs refusing to do struck work. They know the right thing to do, too bad their leaders dont.

 

[aafsc]

I believe at Continental the IAM had the same setup only they also had the mechs, yet because the pilots crossed Lorenzo handled the walkout. A short time later he also crushed the pilots. So the IAMs broad scope of workers does not leave them any safer than the mechanics.

Clearly if workers are to hold their own they need broader coalitions, that does not automatically mean that they must have the same representative, they just must support each other.In other words "act like unions".

NWA spent 18 months planning for the mechanics strike. How long do you think they would need to set up for an IAM strike?Its common knowledge in this industry that if you have your mechanics and your pilots you have your airline. And there are even more laid off agents and clerks than mechanics.

You are correct in that should the IAM go out the immediate impact would be the most severe, if they caught NWA unprepared, however after a day or two things would start to get better. With mechanics its the opposite, the impact gets greater with time, up to a certyain point. EAL never recovered. Continental went BK twice. Todays Continental mechanics are once again unionized-Teamsters, the TWU just failed to unionize its Fleet Workers.

If the two groups worked together they would be a more formidable force, however as Lorenzo proved at Continental not an impregnable one. However working together does not mean that the mechanics must give up their autonomy because as we see with the TWU that can lead to a tyranny of the majority where mechanics have no voice such as when mechanics lost R&D and Deicing to their own "union brothers" and could do nothing about it. The TWU did not care that we lost the work because they saw no loss in dues. The transfer of work was a concession with no credit for the mechanics and a gain for Fleet. Despite the fact that Fleet has been stealing our work I would have honored a Fleet picket line. I would not let disagreements between us over the union make me an agent of the company in destroying another union or its members. Even if we have differences over unions we are still on the same side, or should be.

When NWA takes the IAM on they will have their mechanics, pilots and flight attendants. When they took on AMFA they were not sure of what they would have, now they know. Like I said rank and file pilots feel more of a professional kinship with the mechanics than other workers. If they did not walk for the mechs they will not walk for anyone else either. Even if ALPA voices support the Rank & File will not support a walk out. The PFAA is considered an outcast by the AFL-CIO so they wont support the IAM either,and of course the mechanics are already scabs and should they reach a settlement with AMFA the IAM would most certianly be in no position to expect any help from AMFA after their behavior.

This is not meant to be a put down but of all the major job classifications Fleet service is the easiest to contract out. The fact is the available pool of labor with the skills required for the IAM represented positions at NWA is very, very large. Thats makes them easier to replace, not easy, but easier than mechanics even though they are a larger group.

How hard of a time did the AA have contracting out cabin service?

Its also the most cost effective since. A high turnover in fleet is the most acceptable because of the low amount of training invested. High turnover in fleet keeps wages and benifit costs lower because the lower skill requirements makes recruitment less expensive.

NWAs agent sent cards offering $32/hr to every mechanic across the country, all they got from the 300,000,000 or so people in the country was 1900 scabs. They could get that many replacement in Texas alone with an ad in the paper.

NWA had to take these scabs and train them for weeks. Flying them in from all around the country and putting them up in hotel rooms providing meals and pay while training them. All they would do with Fleet is contract with Swissport or some other Service provider to prepare to pick up their work. Part timers would be offereed more hours and full timers would be offered OT. If that was not enough they would simply hire more people locally and spread them out through all their operations so that they would have enough experienced workers to keep the new hires productive.

A fleet worker probably reaches maximum effeciency and productivity way way before he reaches top pay. So that means from the companies position after a certain point they are paying more but recieve no additional benifit. I'll be the first to admit that Fleet peforms very important and difficult work, its a hard job, I've done it, but if you take a Junior Fleet service clerk with one year on the job and compare his output to a regular fleet service clerk with 20 years on the job the pay rates are hugely different but the output is not.

With mechanics even though their physical ability may diminish over time their experience and knowledge becomes more of an assett than their back. The ability to return an aircraft to service as quick as possible is where his value lies. Over time, long after he has reached top pay, he becomes more of an assett to the operation.

When EAL and Pan Am went out of business AA and other carriers even hired mechanics who were well into their 60s. Why? Because they brought years of experience and knowledge with them. I dont recall seeing AA hire many elderly fleet service workers when those carriers closed their doors.

Many years ago I worked for Capitol Airways they only employed Pilots, mechanics, Flight Attendants and a few gate agents, they contracted out ALL of fleet service. There were drawbacks as the service that these subcontractors provided was inferior to that of the majors with their in house fleet workers but today cost seems to be the only factor.

The fact is that the IAM leadership made a stupid move motivated by spite and revenge instead of common sense. Some in the field see this as there have been reports of NWA Fleet service Crew Chiefs refusing to do struck work. They know the right thing to do, too bad their leaders dont.

[post="291208"][/post]​

Well Bob we agree that if the IAM walked at NW the effects would be immediate. The cutoff of cash flow would be instantaneous and all the airlines are tight on cash now. So the questions would be, How quick could NW get back to schedule if the IAM walked? And how much cash would they burn before they can? The pilots at NW would not walk for themselves let alone anyone else because they are in a lose lose situation. IF they walk NW goes Ch.11 and they wave goodbye to their pensions for sure just as UA and US pilots lost their pensions in Ch.11. They will capitulate as long as they see a ray of hope of preventing their pensions from going to the PBGC.

As for contracting out cabin, yes AA did that but it was an orderly transition. What AA doesn't realize is the amount they save in wages they are losing in "a sudden decrease in cabin supplies inventory."

When AA got EAL's MIA hub and routes they needed to hire hundreds of people very quickly. They hired a large number of ex-EAL in MIA who were already trained and some of them believe it or not was in their late 50s and early 60s. They needed to get people fast to work the newly acquired routes.

I certainly hope the IAM folks at NW are preparing themselves appropriately for what may lie ahead.

 

[scab scraper]

let me just ask something here

bob owens works for AA? yes/no?
dAAve stewart works for AA? yes/no?
amfa(PUKE)man? works for AA? yes/no?
hackman works for AA? yes/no?
proamfa(PUKE) works for AA? yes/no?
buckhead works for AA? yes/no?
tiny kinny mc works for AA? yes/no?

whats the point you say? the point is you all know who you are & how long you have been @ AA & even some of you have tried to be involved w/TWU but, have failed. so, you try something else amfa (PUKE) a "stand alone" ASSOciation well, the question still remains after all the years y'all put in @ AA why you still here/there/ where ever you are? why not msp/dtw? southwest/alaska?
i tried to get a UNION in the place i used to work. the people didn't want it. i left!!
another place i worked they threw out a union & wanted another one. sounded wrong to me so , i left!! started @ AA, UNION... good one ....solid...united... i have a voice & wasn't afraid to use it & when things don't/ didn't sound right to me i asked questions READ the contract asked questions got answers.
do i like what happened in '01 no but, you know...I"M STILL WORKING!!!!!
still @ AA, still supporting my family, my community, my UNION.
you guys can all sit @ your computers @ write all this stuff & say all these things about standing up etc... but, what you are is ignorant!!!!!!
amfa(PUKE) has did this to themselves.
been away from this site for a while & when i come back to read some it is still the same

AFL-CIO/ATD/TWU=SCABFREE