One great airline DVD

[Dignity]

I am not sure what your agenda is concerning your comments?

as colorful as Norths comment may be at times, pretty much the comments are right, based on exactly what we all went through in bankruptcy and personal
experiences prior...I personally do not think there is an agenda, rather than simply just telling it like it is...

when one reads a comment such as,

if the all-powerful NWA unions hadn't allowed their Management to take their employees to the cleaners

shows to many just how...some have no idea what they are either talking/writing about or have any idea what happened.

As far as the Flight Attendant group, we were willing to acknowledge concessions were probably needed at some point, what happened and how did they respond? they added 50 million to the concession proposal(above and beyond what was needed), attempted to eliminate half our ranks(up to basically year 1989 seniority) which would have taken out all the junior Flight Attendants, those hired in the 90's who spoke Asian languages and those hired after the NWO/RAL merger, forced our group to train our replacements on the aircraft and when they did not get what they wanted used the bankruptcy court to eliminate our contract while still attempting to outsource our jobs and forced terms upon our group, then went so far as to get a federal judge to place a restraining order to keep everyone on the job(court ordered). This situation was done by the courts and federal judges, not...the representative of employees. The pathetic and tragic part in all of this was simply we had helped them in the past with concessions only to be taken advantaged of after the fact, it was pointless, unfair and a disgrace to all the men and women of Northwest.

The entire situation was played out in the media spotlight..either some have..
1) forgot
2) ignored
3) dont care about facts

People are not necessarily angry(we are a little more professional than some are giving credit), they simply know what has happened in the past while seeing the same names appear all over again...

Fortunately the Flight Attendants are a little above that kind of nonsense, and still performed their jobs professionally(along with *all* NWA employees, even though they attempted to destroy the Flight Attendant profession)....resulting in allowing the airline to become a viable and attractive merger candidate...today.

People are entitled to their own opinions however when some attempt to post half-truths, or simply are just clueless(which is more than likely the case) its a little annoying to some I would imagine and of course some may be a little "colorful" to get some to take their heads out the sand..(is what I am thinking?)..or as mentioned just telling it like it is..

Cooper, many of us are moving beyond what has happened slowly and cautiously and doing so with an open mind focusing on the future and success for the new airline but at the same time not ignoring the past.

 

[Dignity]

(by the way, NW does Habitat for Humanity, too)

that is one of the most rewarding programs people can do to help another family in need, the look on someones face(a family) when they see their new home
is priceless. I applaud all employees who truly care and contribute for those families who just need a little help to re-start their lives, it is a blessing.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

People are entitled to their own opinions however when some attempt to post half-truths, or simply are just clueless(which is more than likely the case) its a little annoying to some I would imagine and of course some may be a little "colorful" to get some to take their heads out the sand..(is what I am thinking?)..or as mentioned just telling it like it is..

Excellent post, Diginity.
Many DL employees live in a bubble, mostly by their own choosing because they are not interested in going out and seeking knowledge but instead just like to "kick-back" and implore standard company-issued mottos and euphemisms.
In the F/A dept, there is a second bubble layer (we're double-wrapped! lol) as many FAs don't work a full schedule and therefore seperate themselves from the realities of what's going on.
I'll give you an example: We just found out who our 14 elected Seniority Integration Committee members are and Deltanet reports that approx 3,000 FAs voted. That's only 25% of our total population!!! Only 25% cared enough to vote for the people that will represent them in seniority integration discussions!! Now, do you see why AFA has such a hard time getting people to actually vote? With these numbers, I think the 40% AFA recv'd in May is a pretty good showing.
On a side note: IF..if this goes to arbitration, do you think the arbitrator will look at the poor showing of voting for Seniority Integ. members and could it affect his/her ruling?? (as in, 'those DL f/a's don't seem to care too much about their seniority compared to NW so perhaps a little more weight thrown to NW..') DL FAs better hope not.

 

[Dignity]

On a side note: IF..if this goes to arbitration, do you think the arbitrator will look at the poor showing of voting for Seniority Integ. members and could it affect his/her ruling?? (as in, 'those DL f/a's don't seem to care too much about their seniority compared to NW so perhaps a little more weight thrown to NW..') DL FAs better hope not.

an arbitrator takes everything into consideration, pre-merger conditions and expectations from *both* groups, value of both companies, length of service, financial conditions of both companies, just a host of different factors, and its not isolated to just a few issues and once the arbitrator decision is made, their ruling is final.

in order to protect both groups seniority it is imperative this situation is resolved out of arbitration(which I think and hope will happen) I personally want to see.. respect for DAL Flight Attendant seniority, while at the same time having ours respected too.

Luke, I hope you have a great day.

 

[Kev3188]

in order to protect both groups seniority it is imperative this situation is resolved out of arbitration(which I think and hope will happen) I personally want to see.. respect for DAL Flight Attendant seniority, while at the same time having ours respected too.

Luke, I hope you have a great day.

I think anyone that doesn't have an agenda wants this. That's why DOH is the only fair way (especially true in Ground Ops/ACS).

 

[North by Northwest]

I am not sure what your agenda is concerning your comments? If you are trying to persuade DL folks to vote for the union , your solicitation skills needs some work. All you do is constantly talk down to people on the DL side and you seem very angry. If you are angry you need to direct that anger towards someone you are not trying to persuade to vote your way. I personally support unionization but think that you will catch more flies with honey. you are falling right into what the company wants you to do. They know if you attack people at DL you will drive them to vote against the union. think about it.

My "agenda" is to NEVER forget what these people did to Northwest employees every since their arrival in 1989. The loss of BILLIONS in pay, THOUSANDS in lost jobs (to OUTSOURCING), a level of greedy self enrichment that put every other CON ARTIST in the airline business to shame...Moreover, I am not trying to persuade anyone to do anything, they had better do what they think is best for them based on REALITY. It appears there are a lot of people at NEW Delta that were a part of that 60% who were concerned with ONLY themselves and an perceived seniority advantage over NW (through a veiled promise from their NW leader). That should have been their FIRST lesson of what is in-store down the road from the "New Delta" anti union machine. Trust me, IF..they don't vote for a Union and it fails....they will get a real dose of reality when their new leaders are finished with them...then you will see angry. (OLD Delta style)

The 60% and their self-centerness (MEEEEEE/ instead of WE)... have cost the rest of NEW Delta crews tens of millions in improved pay and benefits via a new contract that could have been in full effect right now.

You are incorrect in your accusation of me "talking down to Delta people", I have HIGH respect and admiration for Delta people, like pilots, and those that have stood up and demanded a voice in THEIR company and future. If "people" find the truth un-friendly, they are going to believe the Delta anti union machine no matter how delicately you deliver it. Sugar coat a delivery of truth for people who REFUSE to even acknowledge the career behavior of their new leaders? Or those that voted to screw every one else out of money and benefits...too bad. It is appalling that ANYONE from OLD Delta is feeling this NON union "SEGREGATED"pay raise is "good" for this NEW company. THIS...coming from a man who is promoting "ONE GREAT COMPANY"!

There are many VERY smart people from the Old Delta who are clearly not fooled by the snake oil being sold...thank goodness!

The TRUTH may sound angry, or un- pleasant to people who REFUSE to acknowledge it. You yourself made it clear as to why you didn't vote in the last election.

You want to see anger, talk to NW mechanics that were set in the street after decades of service, all so your new leaders, their HEDGE FUND MASTERS and Steenland could force feed this merger WITH OUR MONEY, in order to collect tens of MILLIONS Of yours and mine dollars!

I seek nothing but happiness and success to all at our New company...AFTER our Unions are in place. I am afraid that until then, there will be no "Gumbaya" dance no matter how many PHONY CDs they send out... with OUR MONEY!

(and Coopper, thanks for the post, I do value your opinion, your comments have value and are appreciated)

 

[BABABOOY]

Excellent post, Diginity

We just found out who our 14 elected Seniority Integration Committee members are and Deltanet reports that approx 3,000 FAs voted. That's only 25% of our total population!!! Only 25% cared enough to vote for the people that will represent them in seniority integration discussions!!

Agreed...! shame full and disheartening.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Agreed...! shame full and disheartening.

Actually, Deltanet reports the 14 members, combined, recv'd a total of 3,035 votes. So we have no idea how many (combined) votes non-winning members recv'd. However, if you consider that each participating ATL and NYC f/a voted for 6 and 3 members respectively, it still doesn't seem like a very good showing.

 

[delta777]

Make NO MISTAKE...it WAS under bankruptcy and COURT RULINGS that FORCED NW Unions. There is a BIG difference in willingly be stripped naked. One company "volunteered" their employees to give money to the pensions and tens of millions in pay to thieves, while the other was achieved through and FORCED (upon) by a court of law.

So, there was NO "Allowed" anything. That is the difference, dare I say a backbone. Some will stand for what is right, while others will fall for anything.

Ummm...not exactly big shot. The IAM reached agreements with management while in bankruptcy for massive concessions. These weren't exactly forced down your throats by management or a bankruptcy judge without your input. You, after the IAM negotiated them, voted for the scalping you received in bankruptcy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ess=102x2043452

I espscially liked this little quote from IAM leadership,

"The negotiating committee unanimously recommends ratification of the agreement to avoid the elimination of our contract,â€￾ said Bobby DePace, president of District 143 of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12866735/

Seems perhaps your anger should be vented in another direction.

 

[Kev3188]

Ummm...not exactly big shot. The IAM reached agreements with management while in bankruptcy for massive concessions. These weren't exactly forced down your throats by management or a bankruptcy judge without your input. You, after the IAM negotiated them, voted for the scalping you received in bankruptcy.

You must not be as familiar with the 1113 process as you'd like to think. The choice was ratification or abrogation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12866735/

Seems perhaps your anger should be vented in another direction.

Seems you should read what you post:

"The agreement came hours before a bankruptcy court hearing in New York, where Judge Allan Gropper was to consider whether to allow Northwest to throw out the union contract and impose its own terms.

Bankruptcy law allows companies to reject their union contracts with a judge’s permission, a threat that prompted pilots and flight attendants to also make deals.

The ground workers had rejected an earlier wage-cut and layoff offer."

 

[North by Northwest]

"The agreement came hours before a bankruptcy court hearing in New York, where Judge Allan Gropper was to consider whether to allow Northwest to throw out the union contract and impose its own terms."


Of which Judge Gropper "threw" (I am brain dead bout now) out the Flight Attendant's contract and imposed draconian, over-reaching concessions that went FAR and ABOVE what was needed to help the company. The plus side...the Steenland family is VERY RICH thanks to our drastic paycuts. And the plan for the merger with Delta was on it's way!
------------------------
And PeepSqueek 777 (opposite of Big Shot), you clearly don't know as much as you pretend to know about what happened at another carrier. I am familiar with what happened to EVERY Union at NW...cause I was there. Threats of outsourcing, spending hundreds of millions on "replacement" slaves, strategically placed around the world in fantastic hotels ala vacation, thousands of dollars of bonuses (from the pay checks of NW employees), and the backing of the crooked courts (like the United Bk judge that was indicted).

I'd think twice about telling us what did and didn't happen on our own property.

This was at the end of your article:

"Barring settlements with the pilots and flight attendants, Northwest will go ahead Tuesday with a trial in bankruptcy court in New York asking a judge to let it void those union contracts. The unions have threatened to strike if the judge allows Northwest do that."

And the court PREVENTED us from even striking! So much for fairness under American Justice for the worker bees.

 

[delta777]

"The agreement came hours before a bankruptcy court hearing in New York, where Judge Allan Gropper was to consider whether to allow Northwest to throw out the union contract and impose its own terms."


Of which Judge Gropper through out the Flight Attendant's contract and imposed draconian, over-reaching concessions that went FAR and ABOVE what was needed to help the company. The plus side...the Steenland family is VERY RICH thanks to our drastic paycuts. And the plan for the merger with Delta was on it's way!
------------------------
And PeepSqueek 777 (opposite of Big Shot), you clearly don't know as much as you pretend to know about what happened at another carrier. I am familiar with what happened to EVERY Union at NW...cause I was there. Threats of outsourcing, spending hundreds of millions on "replacement" slaves, strategically placed around the world in fantastic hotels ala vacation, thousands of dollars of bonuses (from the pay checks of NW employees), and the backing of the crooked courts (like the United Bk judge that was indicted).

I'd think twice about telling us what did and didn't happen on our own property.

All of these things happened on the IAM's watch. Could you tell me what, if anything they did to prevent these aggregious things from happening in the future, as they clearly were powerless to prevent them the first time around.

Sounds like all the IAM could do was offer little more than offer fiery rhetoric. If your goal is to convince me that i, or my fellow co-workers would be better off working under the IAM umbrella, i'm not impressed. Seems to me NWA workers under the IAM are no better off than other airline workers, union or not.

 

[Come Fly with Me]

All of these things happened on the IAM's watch. Could you tell me what, if anything they did to prevent these aggregious things from happening in the future, as they clearly were powerless to prevent them the first time around.

Sounds like all the IAM could do was offer little more than offer fiery rhetoric. If your goal is to convince me that i, or my fellow co-workers would be better off working under the IAM umbrella, i'm not impressed. Seems to me NWA workers under the IAM are no better off than other airline workers, union or not.

Don't you comprehend what you're reading they(NW) were in bankruptcy. You don't have many rights in bk court so to walk away with the little they got was an achievement.

 

[Kev3188]

All of these things happened on the IAM's watch. Could you tell me what, if anything they did to prevent these aggregious things from happening in the future, as they clearly were powerless to prevent them the first time around.

Since when does a union make the management decisions? It was their ineptitude that brought us to CH11, not labor's...

Sounds like all the IAM could do was offer little more than offer fiery rhetoric. If your goal is to convince me that i, or my fellow co-workers would be better off working under the IAM umbrella, i'm not impressed. Seems to me NWA workers under the IAM are no better off than other airline workers, union or not.

Is this a joke?

Naturally, you've seen all of the proposals that NW wanted to impose vs. what was negotiated under the threat of abrogation, right?

Since you've studied both, and are clearly an expert at what happened at another carrier, I'd like to know what specifically you think the PFAA/AFA & IAM could have done above and beyond what they did. If you can frame it within the context of the 1113 processes, that'd be even better.

As for "being no better off," if it wasn't for the IAM going to bat for us, no one in any city (save MSP/DTW) would currently be employed. After that, the examples of how we're doing better compared to our peers at other carriers are legion. Specifically vs. DL, here's a couple:

1. A scope clause.

2. 6 weeks vacation vs. 4

3. Lower medical costs

4. Sick and OJI accruals that don;t expire vs. the 7 day PPT travesty


Educate yourself before you come back; it'll make for a much more interesting conversation. Also, when you do, I'm still waiting for your answer on how a pilot's skill are any more marketable out in the real world than the other employee group(s).

 

[North by Northwest]

777-

Our Union saved thousands of jobs that truly were going to be outsourced...by the SAME people involved with this New company. Just ask the Delta, and now, NW Payroll/ Admin. departments. These people LOVE/are ADDICTED to the cheapest labor they can find, because it means MORE for their pockets via "bonuses".

Their philo. is they DO NOT want to make ANY airline job a career..not even pilots (maybe especially them because they are the highest labor cost). They WILL use any and every opportunity to replace as many employees with CHEAP new hires or outsourcing as they can once they get all their ducks in a row. They plan strategy YEARS in advance, and if they can block any more Unions from coming from NW to the new Delta (and a Republican gets in in 4 years) there will be a blood bath of "reductions in force" and you truly will have a "NEW" company. There won't be anyone with more than 5 years seniority left.

Our Unions provided us with a compensation package superior to our fellow rank and file at Delta. Do you think the New company is Delta just because of the "name" or the $9.1 billion dollar tax break? A MAJOR part of that decision is because Delta is located in Georgia, a right to work ANTI Union as you can get State. Let me share with you a post by a Old Delta employee posted on another site:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/g...d.main/4215569/

"The following post is a lengthy e-mail sent to me from a friend who works in an operations division at Delta Air Lines after I asked him how things were going with the merger. His reply is primarily about the newly-announced organizational structure of his department. He agreed to let me post it because, he says, it shows a side of the Delta-Northwest merger that isn’t commonly known, and which could effect the success of this combination down the road.
“Well, we just had our new organizational structure announced, about two weeks after most other divisions announced theirs. It’s a bit of a surprise – a shock, really, but it shouldn’t have been because of what we’ve seen with the other announcements.

There’s a joke (more like gallows humor) going around Delta that Northwest got a great deal – they bought Delta for the price of Northwest, and they used Delta’s money to do it.

Let me explain: of the announced leadership changes, the make up has been either a one-for-one mix of Delta management with Northwest management (although NW is only, what, 60% the size of Delta), or the new mix has been heavily in favor of former NW managers. For instance, one division announced 7 Vice-president / director positions, of which 6 went to former NW people!

So what we’re seeing is the apparent takeover of Delta management by Northwest people. Surprising because Northwest managers don’t have a good reputation for work relations, at least not among their own employee base."

"