Outcome-based Negotiations

[ITRADE]

Hey, Itrade...I see you changed your Signature! Is it because you and Pitbull agreed on a couple of things for a change?

That's under your assumption that Pitbull is....ummm....ummmm.....

The other posters can draw their own conclusions. I'm not saying anything.

Now only if the Arabs and Jewish Israelis can figure things out.

 

[28yearsnojob]

Hey Tim are you going to get the stations back that went contract on the ramp about 14 months ago when the IAM reopens the COB.

 

[diogenes]

While I have opinions about ALPA, I would not presume to advise pilots how to go about their negotiations with the company.

And I will not accept any other group telling us how to vote, or negotiate.

Everybody has a different tipping point, where they decide they will go no further.

Accept it.

 

[700UW]

it is crazy to me that utiityy make the amount of money that they do. being an aircraft cleaner should not be a career job. it should be a stepping stone. a job for a kid to do out of high scholl while he wonders what to do with ihs life. i am not blaming the cleaners for making the money that they do . more power to them. i blame past management and the unions for negotiating such pay for a utility person. now the company is gonna come and ask them for a pay cut and i think that its gonna be hard for the company to get anything from utility. we will see. <_<

Excuse me?

You are a serve passengers in the sky and have some safety training and you mock people that clean airplanes?

Ever been stuck with needle cleaning out a seat pocket? Have have a lav dumped on you? Been to hazmat or biohazard training? Crawled into the wing fuel tank and clean it out? Ever been doused with skydrol? Ever been suspended from the hangar cieling washing or buffing an airplane? Ever dumped lavs in freezing cold or rain?

Ever spent a night on third shift cleaning an RON and doing a FAA mandated Security Check?

Why don't you be a utility person for a day before you post your opinions and get first hand knowledge of what the job really entales.

And top out pay for Utility is $17.13 an hour and many Utility workers were mechanics or stock clerks that were forced back down to Utility to maintain employment. Utility is the lowest paid of any unionized group at this company and there are less then 1,000 left in the company. Ever visit a heavy maintenance base and see what Utility does there?

If you really think about and no disrespect to any F/A, but are you a waiter or waitress in the sky with first aid and safety training? So please don't tell anyone how to earn or make a living to support themselves and their families.

And To Darth, I hope this is not an insult to anyone on the boards, I do not want to get a trip to the cornfield, so please let me know if it is and I will take out the above reference.

 

[PITbull]

it is crazy to me that utiityy make the amount of money that they do. being an aircraft cleaner should not be a career job. it should be a stepping stone. a job for a kid to do out of high scholl while he wonders what to do with ihs life. i am not blaming the cleaners for making the money that they do . more power to them. i blame past management and the unions for negotiating such pay for a utility person. now the company is gonna come and ask them for a pay cut and i think that its gonna be hard for the company to get anything from utility. we will see. <_<

etops1,

There are only 1,000 cleaners left system wide. Who will you get to clean all the a/c , inside and out....YOU? Our group (f/a) don't get paid until the door shuts. Do you think we will be cleaning toilets and sinks, lifting garbage bags with our uniforms on and then turn around and serve the public? I'll be the first to call the health Dept.Whats you solution to a clean product? How much do you think you will save if you subcontract cleaners to a co.? Do you believe it will make a dent in the bottom line?

Personally, I think more of a 'dent" could be made if we rid ourselves of all Directors and half the VPs. Have managment "cross utilize" and work different departments. You don't need a director if you have a manager and a VP.

See my point?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Oh my gosh, I cannot believe you said that "it's crazy that utilitie workers make what they make, it should be a "stepping stone." I don't know what you do, but I hate to break it to ya, ALOT of people can't believe that pilots make what they make-and I know this will bring alot of heat, but PLZ, do ya remember a month or so ago pilots were rated one of the top over-rated jobs. And as far as you deciding that utility should be an entry level stepping stone type job. Well, again, I hate to break it to ya, maybe that is all some people can do. Maybe they do not have the backing, or money, or confidence to do anything else. I think it is extreeemly presumptious of you to make judgements like that. I could not believe what I was reading. Of all the gall h34r:

Well, maybe pilots are overrated, maybe not. The folks who ran the study that made that conclusion are certainly entitled to that opinion.

SWA, JBLU, AirTran, ATA, and on and on manage to get thousands of people from A to B every day without an army of utility personnel on their payrolls. I wonder how they would fare getting those people moved without the pilots on their payrolls?

 

[sentrido]

Isnt utiliy the majority in the IAM? I dont think they would vote to get rid of themselves.

 

[airbiiguy]

hey piney,
trying to take advantage of an immigrant is the better choice? They are desperate for any kind of job, of course theyll do it for the lowest price. we are in america, I thought everything was about having the best wages and that? And frankly I dont like your comments about immigrants, I am one, and PORTION DELETED who take advantage of people who are in a bad position and make a profit on them. what if that was you who only knew that particular postion (utility) and you were paid 17 /hr? wouldnt you want to keep your job and pay , im sure you wouldnt say "oh im only worth 7/hr, pay me that instead of 17!!!! PORTION DELETED

 

[nycbusdriver]

hey piney,
trying to take advantage of an immigrant is the better choice? They are desperate for any kind of job, of course theyll do it for the lowest price. we are in america, I thought everything was about having the best wages and that? And frankly I dont like your comments about immigrants, I am one, and PORTION DELETED who take advantage of people who are in a bad position and make a profit on them. what if that was you who only knew that particular postion (utility) and you were paid 17 /hr? wouldnt you want to keep your job and pay , im sure you wouldnt say "oh im only worth 7/hr, pay me that instead of 17!!!! PORTION DELETED

Back when the "Southern Division" was it's own separate entity, the CLT hub and many out stations had contract cleaners for through flights. These hard-working ladies were Vietnamese (I think) immigrants. They were invariably on the jetway and ready to pounce by the time the last passenger deplaned. And in considerably less than 10 minutes, the airplane was clean. Was PIA taking advantage of immigrants who would take any job? Maybe, but they were contract workers (not an excuse, but possibly a mitigating circumstance) and they seemed relatively happy and prideful in their work.

When the operations finally merged in August, 1989, I suspect the cost of getting this work done tripled over night. I suspect the staffing per airplane actually decreased vs. the contract cleaners, thus causing sporatic delays. ANd what's most telling, is that it appeared than NONE of the Vietnamese immigrants who had been doing a splendid job now appeared at the airplanes in IAM tan uniforms.

 

[pitguy]

Isnt utiliy the majority in the IAM? I dont think they would vote to get rid of themselves.

I believe the numbers are roughly 25% to 30% Utility to Mechanics. With Mechanics being the higher in numbers group. There are several Stores Clerks (under a thousand). The rest of the IAM members are Training Instructors, Planners, QA Auditors and some other positions. The Ramp Workers are on their own contract. Sorry I don't have hard numbers, but I can assure you Mechanics are the majority. Someone may post more factual numbers for you.

 

[2clippedwings]

etops1,

There are only 1,000 cleaners left system wide. Who will you get to clean all the a/c , inside and out....YOU? Our group (f/a) don't get paid until the door shuts. Do you think we will be cleaning toilets and sinks, lifting garbage bags with our uniforms on and then turn around and serve the public? I'll be the first to call the health Dept.Whats you solution to a clean product? How much do you think you will save if you subcontract cleaners to a co.? Do you believe it will make a dent in the bottom line?

Personally, I think more of a 'dent" could be made if we rid ourselves of all Directors and half the VPs. Have managment "cross utilize" and work different departments. You don't need a director if you have a manager and a VP.

See my point?


--------------------

:huh:
PITbull, Not that I am employed by a company within the USAirways Group but.....
I am sure you are aware that other members of AFA do exactly that. ALL of those stations are "self-cleaning" stations.

 

[700UW]

When the operations finally merged in August, 1989, I suspect the cost of getting this work done tripled over night. I suspect the staffing per airplane actually decreased vs. the contract cleaners, thus causing sporatic delays. ANd what's most telling, is that it appeared than NONE of the Vietnamese immigrants who had been doing a splendid job now appeared at the airplanes in IAM tan uniforms.

And if anyone can remember what PI's planes interiors looked like, they were filthy inside, those Vietnamese you talk about use to drag the wet and leaking trash bags down the center aisle carpeting and those carpets were nasty, dirty, soiled and sticky.

 

[PITMTC]

And if anyone can remember what PI's planes interiors looked like, they were filthy inside, those Vietnamese you talk about use to drag the wet and leaking trash bags down the center aisle carpeting and those carpets were nasty, dirty, soiled and sticky.

700 I am not going to direct this to you personally because I know you get emotional and may get yourself booted to the cornfields.

Are you really proud of the way our a/c look?

Do you think our people clean the a/c correctly or even take pride in what they do?

And I don't mean right now. I have been a mechanic for 14 years.

 

[700UW]

PITMTC,

I agree with you 100% our planes look like crap. But the tasks utility is faced with and the staffing the company provides is inadequate.

You have to remember utility is down to only 8 stations that are three shifts, the remaining 10 are third shift only.

Now figure it out, we fly into 89 mainline stations, and that is not counting Europe or the Caribbean, and you don't want to know what they just found out about one of the European vendors were doing, lets just say, using a mop on seat trays after mopping the galley and lav floors, needless to say that vendor is being replaced.

I see planes coming in on their first flight after the RON from vendor stations and the planes are nasty, if this company wants to save money all they need to do is audit the vendors who they pay to clean the planes who are not cleaning them and get the money back. I have seen flights from GSO or RDU on their first leg of day and the lavs are green or brown like they have flown for days with no lav service, this company does business stupid and never verifies what they are paying for actually gets done.

I was talking to a friend in CLT, there staffing is so bad, they don't even have enough manpower on third shift most nights to do a regular RON and security check, management is telling them do a thru flight cleaning and security check, so the plane is not cleaned properly and starts the day out dirty.

Also they just cut more jobs and then turned around and added a mini-sco on a part of every plane every night and eliminated the regular SCO cleaning program.

Management does not care about how our planes look or how dirty they are.

 

[PITMTC]

No lies in what you state, you are right on with all the staffing and time issues, however, read my last line. There have always been problems.