Phl - Atc Will Be The Death Of Us Yet.

[MarkMyWords]

if this works right......below is a picture of the weather map in PHL for tonight. ATC has PHL in gridlock with departures taking between 1 and 2 hours. Flight arrivals are being held away from open gates for up to 2 hours.

And why is it we are going to be adding more flights to this place?

 

[BoeingBoy]

MarkMyWords,

I think I see the problem. See those little bits of yellow and red to the west and north-west of PHL. That's all it takes.....

:blink: :unsure: :angry:

The release I got for a flight to PHL one day had this remark from the dispatcher:
"Contingency fuel due to ATC not having a clue"

Jim

 

[MarkMyWords]

Sad, but that really is the case.

2 hour delays to get around those cells? Gimme a break. You'd think there was a squall line headed right for the airfield!

 

[mweiss]

Given that the prevailing winds would be pushing that line directly toward PHL, I could see some significant delays. Outbound would have to be frozen soon after that snapshot, and inbound not too long after. Outbound would reopen sooner than inbound.

 

[PITbull]

Bring that connecting traffic through PIT.

We got it covered... 😀

 

[mweiss]

Except for the O&D... *sigh* 🙁

 

[BoeingBoy]

mweiss,

Generally you're right about the prevailing winds, but on any day they can be different. If the weather is prefrontal, for instance, the cells would probably be moving NEward parallel to the front while the front itself would probably be moving Eward (and possibly only 10-20 mph).

PHL has 4 departure "gates" - the ones for N thru S departures would be OK until the wx moved thru PHL, at which time the NW thru SW departures would be OK.

The big problem seems to be that PHL is in NY center airspace and adjacent to DC airspace. If either (or both) of those enroute control centers are saturated with flights to/from their respective airports (EWR, LGA, JFK for NY and BWI, DCA, IAD for DC), they stop accepting traffic from PHL.

That's one problem that more runways at PHL (if ever built at some exorbitent cost) won't solve.

Jim

 

[TomBascom]

Bring that connecting traffic through PIT.

We got it covered... 😀

I've spent more way more unscheduled nights in and around PIT than PHL...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just curious Tom, since I don't go thru there nearly as much as I used to. How many of those times were due to a problem with PIT airport operations vs Express snafu's and/or upline or downline problems?

Jim

 

[USFlyer]

For years I've been connecting in PHL, taken hundreds of flights and missed only one connection to SEA. US was able to rebook me via LAS (US to LAS, HP to SEA) that night, so no damage was done other than a very tired passenger by the time I arrived in SEA. I haven't been thru PIT in probably almost a year.

(I'll admit, I often choose to connect in PHL since, if a connection is missed, the drive to DCA is doable without having to stay in a hotel for the night.)

 

[Singleflyer]

Like Tom, I have had many more miss connnect through PIT than PHL. And I only recall one problem that was due to USX. On the other hand, I have landed at MHT from PHL as late as 4:15 AM. They seem to det the flights out no matter how late.

 

[javaboy]

cancel and go VFR

 

[DHC8Driver]

I would imagine the problem with PHL yesterday was the strong northeasterly winds coupled with occasional heavy rain and ceilings low enough to necessitate shooting converging ILS's to 17/9R and deptartures off 9L. Anytime PHL uses 17 and 9R, the place slows to a crawl. One reason is that you can not launch an aircraft off 9L until the aircraft landing 17 has landed and turned off 17 or the crew landing on 17 is on the ground and advises tower that they can hold short of 9L. Remember the "land and hold short" airborne clearance was phased out a few years ago. This whole process slows things down considerably. Add to the mix that the crews on 17 were shooting the approach with (at times) a strong quarterly tailwind. This increases the arrival rate on 17 and therefore slows the departure rate off 9L.
Example PHL WX from 2:53 local yesterday: PHL 021853Z 06012G23KT 1 3/4SM +RA BR FEW015 BKN026 OVC034
Then take into consideration that all these aircraft land on 9R, and are stuck on the wrong side of the runway complex until there is a break in the departures off 9L to let the aircraft cross. Or, ATC can hold 9L departures and let 5 or 10 aircraft scoot across 9L.
As you can see, when the winds are out of the Northeast, PHL operations slow down considerably, just trying to move all the aircraft on the surface becomes a balancing act of trying to land aircraft on 2 runways, depart off an intersecting runway, and cross inbound traffic over the active departure runway so they can get to the gate.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Thanks, DHC8Driver. You're right - when PHL is in an east operation on the long runways it's a recipe for delays in the best of conditions.

Jim

 

[El Gato]

You all ARE aware that there was a 500 ft closure of the western portion of 09L, right? It was due to a hole in the runway. ATC blamed that as the cause of their ills, and caused flights to get parked on taxiways 50 deep. As I understood it, the person in ATC handling ground traffic movement was a rookie, and thus was not able to coordinate things very well. We had planes stuck in the line while their gates were sitting open and ready for them to pull in. The US ramp was not the trouble, the ATC to get them to the ramp was... 😛h34r: