Pilot and Mechanic Shortage

[eolesen]

<sarcasm> Maybe they're afraid of the TWU picketing. </sarcasm>

 

[787nightmare]

It's kinda sad,I was hired in 1989 at General Dynamics at 17.00 dallars an hour. The benefits were totally free,medical ,dental and life insurance,short term disability both combined were around a dollar each. We had no prescription co-pay either free notta
dime. My first week there was during contract neg. Everyday at lunch employee's marched to the white house lawn as they called it. They used rope whistles to let management know they weren't accepting a contract without raises. It was so loud you couldn't hear yourself think....Where's the TWU? I had better representaion at Safeway

It is sad Chris. I'm hiring in at AA in 2011, for less than $4/hr more than I did for NWA back in 1992!
This is a shining example of where the unions in this industry have failed the mechanic. Miserably.

It is absolutely outragous that an aircraft mechanic-at any experience level-would start at a wage that's lower than some "unskilled entry level" positions that carriers are paying.(btw,that the carriers never intended to be anything more than entry level positions, but the industrial catch-all unions have turned into career jobs). My God why can't the mechs in this industry see what I do and move to make a change!? Instead(eolsen), I see naive new hires enthused about being AA mechs & TWU members, with high hopes of earning much more $. Most of these guys have never earned anywhere near the current 32/hr(or so) top out. They're thrilled to be here.

My situation was rather different than most of these guys I hired in with. Had I been able to live with a few more things up in the Puget Sound area with the lazy B(and a willing wife to leave t-town), I wouldn't have left and taken a huge pay cut. A lot of the guys in my new hire class are from around here-as I pointed out previously. But some did come here from out of state. The job market is still tight out there. And I think most of the newbies are just excited to be with a major-as this is there first pony ride at a major. But I'm afraid they'll easily be persuaded by the TWU goons. Like I said...just what we need. I've got good friends at this base telling me nobody else(different representation)is going to make anymore difference than what the TWU has done. "They say they will, but they won't do any better". The more I look around TULE...the more it's going to take a miracle to unseat the TWU. Deeper than a tick on a hound dog...as they say down south. My card's in. 🙁

 

[Bob Owens]

That should be very good news for pilots and mechanics. Much better to work in a field with a shortage of qualified people than in a field with a surplus of workers. Supply and demand can be a good thing.

As to pilots, there may be an industry-wide shortage of pilots in coming years but I expect that UA, DL, AA and WN won't have any trouble filling openings for many years as they attract applicants from the low-paying regionals. The low-paying regionals, of course, may have significant difficulties down the road, as they don't offer max rates of $200+/hr plus all the "glamour" of flying long-haul international routes (applicable to UA, DL and AA but not applicable to WN, of course).

Mechanics? Same story, really. Lower-paid MRO employees will gravitate towards the UA, DL, AA and WN to seek higher wages. Dunno how those lower-paying employers will replace the lost employees unless mechanics lobby for changes in law that require heavy maintenance to occur in the USA.

Line maintenance is where mechanics will be paid bigger bucks than the "can be done anywhere" heavy overhaul. Just like in other fields (nursing), higher wages will eventually attract more workers to become trained and qualified. Once the majors are all paying $50/hr or more for line mechanics (as UPS already is), the remaining schools will fill with applicants.

The process is well under way already for mechanics. If not for the bad economy it would be a crisis. last night spoke to around a dozen new hires at JFK who bailed from Eagle.

Will the schools fill up once we are all up to UPS wages as you say? Doubtful, all you need is one carrier to make the sales pitch. I really think that there isn't much interest and the airlines have such a bad reputation now as a place to work, then throw in the odd ball hours, weekends and holidays and I don't think they be packing the schools anytime soon.

 

[Bob Owens]

Maybe the Chinese workers will help us. Read here http://behindthewall.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/14/7763968-chinas-soaring-costs-could-help-american-jobs

Depends on who you figure "us" is. I was in China a few years back. Literate Chinese have little desire to become Aircraft mechanics and their airline industry is growing. It's not a job that they find as holding any "status". Not much different than here.

 

[FWAAA]

Will the schools fill up once we are all up to UPS wages as you say? Doubtful, all you need is one carrier to make the sales pitch. I really think that there isn't much interest and the airlines have such a bad reputation now as a place to work, then throw in the odd ball hours, weekends and holidays and I don't think they be packing the schools anytime soon.

Ok. You're right, today's young people are way smarter than you and your contemporaries were when you decided to enroll in school to learn how to be an airplane mechanic. What was the top industry hourly wage when you began your education?

Perhaps $50/hr won't attract enough applicants. At that point, employers will raise the pay until they get the employees they need, the way employers fill the 87% of non-government jobs that aren't covered by a collective bargaining agreement. Maybe $60/hr or $70/hr will do it. Perhaps it will take more. There is some hourly wage that would cause tens of thousands of people to want in on the action, we don't know exactly what that figure is, and, of course you'll disagree. Your view is apparently that there is no hourly wage that will attract enough young people to the profession to replace you and your colleagues. Those who took (and paid attention in) Economics class will disagree. Price has a way of balancing the quantity demanded and the quantity supplied of any good or service, even human labor.

 

[Hopeful]

I see things differently. Current corporate culture likes to use "market demand" as the determining factor in wages. However, they usually reserve the higher market rate argument for the executive class. The future for the aircraft mechanic is much bleeker in my opinion.
As less and less mechanics become licensed, instead of raising the wages, the airlines will begin to petition the government, namely the FAA, to eliminate the need for licenses as long as "some" licensed mechanics are available to "oversee" the work.
We will never see the airlines being generous with wages again. They took away decades of bargaining gains either in bankruptcy or in the case of AA, the mere THREAT of bankruptcy.
They have blamed labor for all their woes and the airline worker will always bear the brunt of bad management!

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Ok. You're right, today's young people are way smarter than you and your contemporaries were when you decided to enroll in school to learn how to be an airplane mechanic. What was the top industry hourly wage when you began your education?

Perhaps $50/hr won't attract enough applicants. At that point, employers will raise the pay until they get the employees they need, the way employers fill the 87% of non-government jobs that aren't covered by a collective bargaining agreement. Maybe $60/hr or $70/hr will do it. Perhaps it will take more. There is some hourly wage that would cause tens of thousands of people to want in on the action, we don't know exactly what that figure is, and, of course you'll disagree. Your view is apparently that there is no hourly wage that will attract enough young people to the profession to replace you and your colleagues. Those who took (and paid attention in) Economics class will disagree. Price has a way of balancing the quantity demanded and the quantity supplied of any good or service, even human labor.

When we started in the industry the pay and the benefits were very good. But as corporate greed and bad management slowwly took over our pay decreased year over year and our benefits went up year after year. So here we are 20 years later making the same money we were making back in the 90s. It was a good career 20 years ago then it turned into just another job. Why work for the airlines? The transit, con ed, even the state troopers all have superior pay and benefits. And look at all the money you would save by not having to pay a school for your A&P

 

[eolesen]

I guess the fact that fuel has more than tripled in price from the time you started has nothing to do with the fact your wages have stagnated?...


Oh, and the state troopers & transit guys? Maybe you slept thru the whole Wisconsin vs. the unions issue earlier in the year, but public sector unions are the next ones likely to be facing the music.

With Daley out of the picture in Chicago, Rahm Emmanuel has already started to take on the CTA's unions, threatening layoffs without concessions. The unions caved into Rahm, although I don't know what they came up with for concessions...

State employees in both NY and CT just got slammed with a combination of wage freezes, concessions and increases to their healthcare premiums, not too different from the types of measures WI was taking, but with a lot less fanfare and public outrage...

We've already seen cities in a few states declare bankruptcy, taking out municipal pensions with them. I suspect it is just a matter of time before we see more at the city and even county level. In states where foreclosures are running the highest (CA, AZ, NV, FL), foreclosure proceedings are about to spike again now that the robo-signing induced foreclosure moratorium is coming to an end.

As I said, it's just a matter of time for those guys. And after the public sector unions, I'm guessing it will come full circle back to the guys at the powerhouse unions like the UAW and ILWU.

 

[737823]

I guess the fact that fuel has more than tripled in price from the time you started has nothing to do with the fact your wages have stagnated?...


Oh, and the state troopers & transit guys? Maybe you slept thru the whole Wisconsin vs. the unions issue earlier in the year, but public sector unions are the next ones likely to be facing the music.

With Daley out of the picture in Chicago, Rahm Emmanuel has already started to take on the CTA's unions, threatening layoffs without concessions. The unions caved into Rahm, although I don't know what they came up with for concessions...

State employees in both NY and CT just got slammed with a combination of wage freezes, concessions and increases to their healthcare premiums, not too different from the types of measures WI was taking, but with a lot less fanfare and public outrage...

We've already seen cities in a few states declare bankruptcy, taking out municipal pensions with them. I suspect it is just a matter of time before we see more at the city and even county level. In states where foreclosures are running the highest (CA, AZ, NV, FL), foreclosure proceedings are about to spike again now that the robo-signing induced foreclosure moratorium is coming to an end.

As I said, it's just a matter of time for those guys. And after the public sector unions, I'm guessing it will come full circle back to the guys at the powerhouse unions like the UAW and ILWU.

🙂

Similar initiatives were taken in MA but without flooding Beacon Hill with protestors. I'm glad Rahm is taking a tough stand on the CTA-their pensions and other benefits are crippling the agency.

 

[Hopeful]

I guess the fact that fuel has more than tripled in price from the time you started has nothing to do with the fact your wages have stagnated?...

Fuel prices increase..."FU....CUT WAGES AND BENEFITS!"
Hurricanes and earthquakes affect the bottom line...."FU...CUT WAGES AND BENEFITS!"
New terminals needed....FU...CUT WAGES AND BENEFITS!"
Bad decisions by management...."FU...CUT WAGES AND BENEIFTS!"

Yep, E, employees need to subsidize every down aspect of the operation......Unless, of course, you're an executive!

Oh, and the state troopers & transit guys? Maybe you slept thru the whole Wisconsin vs. the unions issue earlier in the year, but public sector unions are the next ones likely to be facing the music.

With Daley out of the picture in Chicago, Rahm Emmanuel has already started to take on the CTA's unions, threatening layoffs without concessions. The unions caved into Rahm, although I don't know what they came up with for concessions...

State employees in both NY and CT just got slammed with a combination of wage freezes, concessions and increases to their healthcare premiums, not too different from the types of measures WI was taking, but with a lot less fanfare and public outrage...

We've already seen cities in a few states declare bankruptcy, taking out municipal pensions with them. I suspect it is just a matter of time before we see more at the city and even county level. In states where foreclosures are running the highest (CA, AZ, NV, FL), foreclosure proceedings are about to spike again now that the robo-signing induced foreclosure moratorium is coming to an end.

As I said, it's just a matter of time for those guys. And after the public sector unions, I'm guessing it will come full circle back to the guys at the powerhouse unions like the UAW and ILWU.

Thank God executives never have to feel the pain the low life working class BRICK does.
God's chosen people will even fare better in bankruptcy court.

Yea, right, class warfare is just a fear tactic!

 

[eolesen]

Yep, it's all about the greedy rich fat cats. Ignore all that other stuff. Really.

Clearly, you've bought into the DNC's approach for Campaign 2012 -- distract everyone with the notion of class warfare, and hope they get all worked up on that instead of considering the real issues.

Scream about corporate jet flying executives who aren't paying their fare share, while ignoring the fact that 47% of legal taxable workers pay nothing at all, and dismissing the fact that those corporate jet flying executives pay more taxes than anyone else...

Hell, let's get rid of the corporate jets and their owners altogether. Make them fly AA.

That would be fair, right? Never mind the fact that doing so eliminates a couple thousand jobs for pilots and support personnel, and ultimately, tens of thousands at Gulfstream, Bombardier, and all the suppliers making components. That'll show 'em...

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I guess the fact that fuel has more than tripled in price from the time you started has nothing to do with the fact your wages have stagnated?...


Oh, and the state troopers & transit guys? Maybe you slept thru the whole Wisconsin vs. the unions issue earlier in the year, but public sector unions are the next ones likely to be facing the music.

With Daley out of the picture in Chicago, Rahm Emmanuel has already started to take on the CTA's unions, threatening layoffs without concessions. The unions caved into Rahm, although I don't know what they came up with for concessions...

State employees in both NY and CT just got slammed with a combination of wage freezes, concessions and increases to their healthcare premiums, not too different from the types of measures WI was taking, but with a lot less fanfare and public outrage...

We've already seen cities in a few states declare bankruptcy, taking out municipal pensions with them. I suspect it is just a matter of time before we see more at the city and even county level. In states where foreclosures are running the highest (CA, AZ, NV, FL), foreclosure proceedings are about to spike again now that the robo-signing induced foreclosure moratorium is coming to an end.

As I said, it's just a matter of time for those guys. And after the public sector unions, I'm guessing it will come full circle back to the guys at the powerhouse unions like the UAW and ILWU.

Oh Yes thats what happened the airline employee has to subsidize the high cost of fuel.

Last time I checked the NYCT had a wildcat strike in order to settle their contract which by the way is still superior to ours. Even UPS panel truck drivers are making 90K with overtime. NYC finest are making over 100K with OT and Nassau and Suffolk county state troopers are the highest paid in the country. Havent seen the NY unions cave into anything but there sure are a lot more cops pulling people over to justify their pay.

 

[eolesen]

UPS drivers work their ass off, and don't sit around in the break room watching Oprah reruns or surfing their laptops. But they're also not public sector employees.

What exactly is a county state trooper?...

Nassau County executives have already targeted the NCPD as part of a $100M budget reduction for 2012. http://www.liherald.com/stories/Layoffs-police-cuts-highlight-2012-budget,35738?content_source=&category_id=5&search_filter=&event_mode=&event_ts_from=&list_type=&order_by=&order_sort=&content_class=&sub_type=&town_id=

Suffolk is looking at a $180M budget hole, but Steve Levy won't do anything about it since he's leaving office.

Give it time. NYCTA will have their day, too. That contract expires in January, and Local 100 is already pissed about how their prospects are looking: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-09-13/local/30173747_1_mta-president-john-samuelsen-metropolitan-transportation-authority

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

UPS drivers work their ass off, and don't sit around in the break room watching Oprah reruns or surfing their laptops. But they're also not public sector employees.

So do I and I do it on a graveyard shift on every holiday during the year. And in case you havent heard they pay me for what I know not what I do. 😀


And if your ever on Long Island do 60 in a 50 and you will know what a State Trooper is. 😉

 

[eolesen]

And if your ever on Long Island do 60 in a 50 and you will know what a State Trooper is. 😉

I used to live off of Jones Beach. I know better...

I've seen the county police, and I've seen the state police, but I've never seen the county state police.