Pilot and Mechanic Shortage

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

but wait, are your increased taxes, car insurance, and medical costs AA's cause?
I don't think so.
Sounds to me like you were typical of most Americans in spending every dollar you made even before AA cut your pay in 2003.
The compound effect of increased taxes, cost of living, and other factors combined with the pay cuts are too much for your budget... given that AA doesn't tell you how to spend your money, it is up to you to figure out how to make ends meet.
.
the "you" here doesn't mean you, Bob Owens, alone, but every one of us that has to live with the reality that jobs are not stable any where, costs go up beyond our control, and the government continues to reach deeper into our pockets.
The fact that your personal budget doesn't balance is not your employer's problem, whoever your employer is and no matter how many pay raises or pay cuts you have been subjected to.

CLUELESS

Forced to take on debt when your employer cuts your pay, freezes it for eight years and jacks up the price they charge for medical benefits by 600%. The concessions were 25% , the benefit cost increase alone was another 5% , my property taxes went from $6k to $10k then throw in around 3% inflation annual inflation for another 24% and yes, we were forced to take on debt. New car? Mine is a 1993 model with 293,000, my car insurance went up as well, it was old before we took the cuts. The companies expectation that we will continue to work for less and less while they bring in more and more is unrealistic. You say we should adjust our standards, why, to accommodate the insatiable greed of our employer, our employer who reduced headcount by over 30% yet saw their revenues increase by as much as $5 billion? Why should we do without? I'm prepared to lay it all on the line to put and end to trying to satisfy the insatiable, are the owners of AA willing to do the same?


Well said. Maybe WT should read your post again 😀

 

[eolesen]

. You say we should adjust our standards, why, to accommodate the insatiable greed of our employer, our employer who reduced headcount by over 30% yet saw their revenues increase by as much as $5 billion? Why should we do without? I'm prepared to lay it all on the line to put and end to trying to satisfy the insatiable, are the owners of AA willing to do the same?

Again, you need to get outside the AMR bubble and see just how arrogant some of your proclamations sound to the average guy on the street.

Nationwide, annual household income is down to 1996 or 1997 levels, so there are a helluva lot more families who have had to adjust their standards of living in the face of everything getting more expensive.

I know, airline and union employees should be immune/exempt from what the rest of the country is going thru.

And sure, you can claim class warfare, except that the percentage decrease has hit all income levels, not just the middle/working class.

There may be individuals bucking the trend, but on average, everyone is worse off than they were four years ago. Sucks to be just like just about everyone else, but that's what this all is, Bob. You're not exempt from the economic realities anymore than I am.

There are more unemployed workers in the US than there are union members in the private sector. You're already paid well above the median income, so don't expect a whole lot of sympathy from anyone outside the union bubble.

 

[Bob Owens]

but wait, are your increased taxes, car insurance, and medical costs AA's cause?
I don't think so.

No but is the increased cost of fuel, landing fees and interest our fault? Was 9-11 our fault? Was the recession our fault? The fact is that AA has increased their revenues by extracting more from their passengers, revenues that they generate from our labor and our increased productivity and it costs us more to produce that labor, so we aim to do just like the company has done and pass those costs on, and the thing is our increased productivity already more than covers what any of us are asking for.

Sounds to me like you were typical of most Americans in spending every dollar you made even before AA cut your pay in 2003.

Now you have something against Americans?

The compound effect of increased taxes, cost of living, and other factors combined with the pay cuts are too much for your budget... given that AA doesn't tell you how to spend your money, it is up to you to figure out how to make ends meet.

I have it figured out, make more and work less. If we cant get what we need from our employer then we will deny them what they need from us.

the "you" here doesn't mean you, Bob Owens, alone, but every one of us that has to live with the reality that jobs are not stable any where, costs go up beyond our control, and the government continues to reach deeper into our pockets.

Its not just the government, the company has reached further into my pockets than the government, they've increased what they charge me for Health benifits by 600% since 2003, they actually make a profit from me.

The fact that your personal budget doesn't balance is not your employer's problem, whoever your employer is and no matter how many pay raises or pay cuts you have been subjected to.

Perhaps you are right, its not their problem, just like their inability to manage the business for the shareholders is not our problem. Sure eventually it could affect us, but we have no control over that and our agreeing to work for less will not help fix the shareholders problem of having managers who can not run the business. Didnt help the guys at Pan Am, EAL TWA or any of the countless others who as reward for winning the race to the bottom saw the company dissapear anyway. So the best strategy for us is get as much as we can while it lasts so we have enough to get us to our next gig, and there will always be another gig, for most of us this hasnt been our only stop. Thats why we keep our tools on wheels.

 

[Bob Owens]

Again, you need to get outside the AMR bubble and see just how arrogant some of your proclamations sound to the average guy on the street.

Nationwide, annual household income is down to 1996 or 1997 levels, so there are a helluva lot more families who have had to adjust their standards of living in the face of everything getting more expensive.

I know, airline and union employees should be immune/exempt from what the rest of the country is going thru.

And sure, you can claim class warfare, except that the percentage decrease has hit all income levels, not just the middle/working class.

There may be individuals bucking the trend, but on average, everyone is worse off than they were four years ago.

We are worse off than we ever were, 1996 or 1997 levels are much higher than where we are right now. Its one thing to not get a raise for a year or so, its been three for us, but to have taken a double digit pay cut in front of that is even worse.

I'm not looking for sympathy on the street because in the end the only thing that matters is how will we fare in a showdown with the company. With dozens of planes being stored because there's no place to send them and scores running low on time and mechanics working huge amounts of OT and very few mechanics available we are in a good postion to take them on and get our money. The public wont be happy, but when we tell our side, how the company has slashed the workforce and seen huge increases in revenues by raising what they charge them to fly despite slashing our wages as well as our ranks, and lavished their executives with bonuses, their sympathies wont lay with the company either. With corporate America sitting on Trillions of dollars chances are that public sentiment will go more against greedy corporations than mechanics who want to be paid a decent wage for what their job is no matter how the corporate media spins it. After all, most people no longer buy into "tricle down economics" they know that any money that comes out of the corporate coffers and goes to workers goes right back into the economy which increases demand and creates more jobs. Most people I know, even those few who make less are shocked when they hear how little we make. They all say they thought we made more.Sure there are millions unemployed but there are even more millions who are tired of working excessive hours only to find that their paycheck still doesnt go far enough. Most people realize that people get paid different amounts based on what they do and assume that people who do pretty much the same job get similar pay for that job, regardless of the performance of the company, so the fact that the average pay for a mechanic is higher than the average working class wage isnt going to win the company any sympathy. Amtrak workers expect to get what freight haulers get despite the fact that Amtrak never earnes a profit, and the PEB agreed. We earn around $27,000 less per year than the UPS mechanic doing the same job on the other side of the ramp, based on no OT.

 

[Flying low]

We are worse off than we ever were, 1996 or 1997 levels are much higher than where we are right now. Its one thing to not get a raise for a year or so, its been three for us, but to have taken a double digit pay cut in front of that is even worse.

I'm not looking for sympathy on the street because in the end the only thing that matters is how will we fare in a showdown with the company. With dozens of planes being stored because there's no place to send them and scores running low on time and mechanics working huge amounts of OT and very few mechanics available we are in a good postion to take them on and get our money. The public wont be happy, but when we tell our side, how the company has slashed the workforce and seen huge increases in revenues by raising what they charge them to fly despite slashing our wages as well as our ranks, and lavished their executives with bonuses, their sympathies wont lay with the company either. With corporate America sitting on Trillions of dollars chances are that public sentiment will go more against greedy corporations than mechanics who want to be paid a decent wage for what their job is no matter how the corporate media spins it. After all, most people no longer buy into "tricle down economics" they know that any money that comes out of the corporate coffers and goes to workers goes right back into the economy which increases demand and creates more jobs. Most people I know, even those few who make less are shocked when they hear how little we make. They all say they thought we made more.Sure there are millions unemployed but there are even more millions who are tired of working excessive hours only to find that their paycheck still doesnt go far enough. Most people realize that people get paid different amounts based on what they do and assume that people who do pretty much the same job get similar pay for that job, regardless of the performance of the company, so the fact that the average pay for a mechanic is higher than the average working class wage isnt going to win the company any sympathy. Amtrak workers expect to get what freight haulers get despite the fact that Amtrak never earnes a profit, and the PEB agreed. We earn around $27,000 less per year than the UPS mechanic doing the same job on the other side of the ramp, based on no OT.

Reading a lot of different forums, most of the public are anti union and won't care what happens to us. They could care less if a mechanic made $5.00 or $50.00/hour. All they would want is for that plane to leave on time.

 

[737823]

We are worse off than we ever were, 1996 or 1997 levels are much higher than where we are right now. Its one thing to not get a raise for a year or so, its been three for us, but to have taken a double digit pay cut in front of that is even worse.

I'm not looking for sympathy on the street because in the end the only thing that matters is how will we fare in a showdown with the company. With dozens of planes being stored because there's no place to send them and scores running low on time and mechanics working huge amounts of OT and very few mechanics available we are in a good postion to take them on and get our money. The public wont be happy, but when we tell our side, how the company has slashed the workforce and seen huge increases in revenues by raising what they charge them to fly despite slashing our wages as well as our ranks, and lavished their executives with bonuses, their sympathies wont lay with the company either. With corporate America sitting on Trillions of dollars chances are that public sentiment will go more against greedy corporations than mechanics who want to be paid a decent wage for what their job is no matter how the corporate media spins it.

Bob, I thought your party line was that your concessions allow the general flying public to enjoy cheap fares. You can't have it both ways and now say the new revenue management is taking from customers as a means to drum up support and solidarity for airline workers. If anything the traveling public would gladly see AA's ground handling, maintenance, and overwing ground operations outsourced if it lowered ticket prices.

No matter how silly it is of you and others here to believe labor concessions have kept ticket prices low doesn't understand the market dynamics at play for the airlines. Like it or not, the real cost of flying has fallen since deregulation even with the new unbundling initiatives (baggage fees, food for purchase, etc)

So which is it? The traveling public is being soaked by AA or your concessions are keeping fares low?

Josh

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Again, you need to get outside the AMR bubble and see just how arrogant some of your proclamations sound to the average guy on the street.


There may be individuals bucking the trend, but on average, everyone is worse off than they were four years ago. Sucks to be just like just about everyone else, but that's what this all is, Bob. You're not exempt from the economic realities anymore than I am.

Sure everyone is worse off than four years ago but we have been enduring this BS since 03 thats eight years not four. Wake up !!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

The reality is that Americans HAVE reduced their level of personal indebtedness in light of the economic conditions which have confronted the country.
While there are clearly people who have taken on debt as a result of their own reduction in income, the majority of Americans are able to perceive when they are not able to buy what they want and cut back their spending.
The vast majority of Americans have not allowed their personal level of debt to become so high that they can't manage it.
No, I have nothing against Americans, but it is undeniable that they carry some of the highest levels of personal debt in the world and also save the least.... but it is also true that most Americans are adapting to the realities of the new economy.
.
How you and anyone else adapt to the financial realities in YOUR world is your responsibility - and you will pay the consequences or enjoy the benefits for your failure or ability to manage to the financial realities around you.
Credit is a benefit which is extended and if managed well you can use it to your benefit even in hard times.
Even when your salary is reduced, banks usually do not reduce your level of personal credit if you demonstrate that you continue to be able to manage the levels of credit you have.
But if you have no margin and your reduced salary results in missed payments or defaults, your credit score and the level of credit you are given starts falling quickly.
.
Your statement about getting what you can from AA as long as you can is the same strategy that UA's pilots used as the ESOP was winding down - and we all know how that ended up - the company caved to the pilots' demands only to take "that egg" away and alot more - from which UA pilots have not recovered.
Yes, you could hold out for your own benefit and AA might continue to tread water with its current debt in order to avoid facing the
nasty labor confrontation which I think Arpey has tried to avoid - and which could well shut AA down ALA Eastern.
.
But while AA seems to be avoiding facing the longterm viability of their decision to delay a restructuring, your action and mindset also means that there are AA employees who will be shafted when the company cannot keep going any longer; at one point to you as a labor leader "shut it down" because you have reached your personal goals but there are a whole lot of people behind you - from whom you collect union dues - who are nowhere near ready to say they have gotten their share of AA's backside and are confident enough they can find something better?

 

[Bob Owens]

Reading a lot of different forums, most of the public are anti union and won't care what happens to us. They could care less if a mechanic made $5.00 or $50.00/hour. All they would want is for that plane to leave on time.

Guess you didnt catch what I was saying, take it for granted that we cant count on public sympathy, but the company cant either.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, I thought your party line was that your concessions allow the general flying public to enjoy cheap fares. You can't have it both ways and now say the new revenue management is taking from customers as a means to drum up support and solidarity for airline workers. If anything the traveling public would gladly see AA's ground handling, maintenance, and overwing ground operations outsourced if it lowered ticket prices.

Well thats the point, AA isnt giving us any more money yet they keep raising the fares. If they outsource they would simply pocket the difference, if any, as well.

No matter how silly it is of you and others here to believe labor concessions have kept ticket prices low doesn't understand the market dynamics at play for the airlines. Like it or not, the real cost of flying has fallen since deregulation even with the new unbundling initiatives (baggage fees, food for purchase, etc)

Did the real cost of flying fall at a greater rate in the 30 years since deregulation than it did in the 30 years prior? I dont think so. People such as yourself seem to like to leave out the fact that the real cost of flying got cheaper and cheaper under the CAB, it went from something only for the rich on DC-3s to something most could afford on a 747.

Is flying more expensive this year than last? Is it more expensive than 2008?

 

[wrencher]

Well thats the point, AA isnt giving us any more money yet they keep raising the fares. If they outsource they would simply pocket the difference, if any, as well.

Well Bob since you helped get MCI closed last year have you and the twu international boys keep all the cost saveings associated with this transaction, now they are outsourceing the work when we have two superhangers , man you all really must of hated us, it's ok not to like Gordon but there was alot of other good people effected as well. AT YOUR next meeting why don't you recommend them sending the work to MCI it would make alot of people in the system happy and it would be a win win for the company and twu just correct the WRONG .

 

[FWAAA]

Is flying more expensive this year than last? Is it more expensive than 2008?

What really matters is that AA's fares were lower in 2010 than they were in 2000; the yield (average fare per passenger mile) was 14.06 cents in 2000 but only 13.36 cents last year, 2010. Similar story at the other airlines as well. The number of "fare hikes" publicized in the popular press isn't the key - what matters is how much revenue the airline can extract from passengers, and the numbers aren't good.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well Bob since you helped get MCI closed last year have you and the twu international boys keep all the cost saveings associated with this transaction, now they are outsourceing the work when we have two superhangers , man you all really must of hated us, it's ok not to like Gordon but there was alot of other good people effected as well. AT YOUR next meeting why don't you recommend them sending the work to MCI it would make alot of people in the system happy and it would be a win win for the company and twu just correct the WRONG .

Just curious, how do you figure I had anything to do with closing MCI or would have any say in reopening it?

 

[Bob Owens]

What really matters is that AA's fares were lower in 2010 than they were in 2000; the yield (average fare per passenger mile) was 14.06 cents in 2000 but only 13.36 cents last year, 2010. Similar story at the other airlines as well. The number of "fare hikes" publicized in the popular press isn't the key - what matters is how much revenue the airline can extract from passengers, and the numbers aren't good.

Zzzzzzzzzz, 2000 one of the handful that ever were. 30 years in this industry and carriers could always find numbers to support their assertions that they were in a crisis.

Don't think the airlines crying about their yields is going to help fill the schools with pilots and mechanics.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Well thats the point, AA isnt giving us any more money yet they keep raising the fares. If they outsource they would simply pocket the difference, if any, as well.

Well Bob since you helped get MCI closed last year have you and the twu international boys keep all the cost saveings associated with this transaction, now they are outsourceing the work when we have two superhangers , man you all really must of hated us, it's ok not to like Gordon but there was alot of other good people effected as well. AT YOUR next meeting why don't you recommend them sending the work to MCI it would make alot of people in the system happy and it would be a win win for the company and twu just correct the WRONG .

Maybe you should make some calls seems AA has to much work maybe you can persuade them to open the "two superhangers"

AA will be sending four 757 Heavy C-Checks to TIMCO, no later than November 1, 2011.