Pilot seniority arbitration award is out

[Rico]

I would like to hear from a west pilot how they think the following is fair. I will not use names, but if you look at the award, you can see them. To identify the pilots, I will use the "new" seniority number.

Pilot #4768 was the junior active pilot from the East. He was hired 7/18/1988. The pilot right below him is the only West pilot junior to him (Save Dave). And of course all the pilots that were furloughed are below both of them.

Pilot #4768 has almost 19 years of active service. He was NEVER furloughed. Flew the line the entire time. Now lets look at the first West pilot now senior to him. That would be pilot #4765, with a hire date of 4/4/2005. When the merger was announced, this pilot had 2 MONTHS of service. Why shoud he go above a 19 YEAR pilot that was never furloughed?

Sorry man, "fair" went out the door as soon as that award was announced. It's what the AWA pilots were arguing for since the beginning, so don't expect them to come around now that they have been told they can have what they want.

Now the only way we can prevent the windfall is by never allowing it to occur.

No merger, no windfall.

Nuff said.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

I would like to hear from a west pilot how they think the following is fair. I will not use names, but if you look at the award, you can see them. To identify the pilots, I will use the "new" seniority number.

Pilot #4768 was the junior active pilot from the East. He was hired 7/18/1988. The pilot right below him is the only West pilot junior to him (Save Dave). And of course all the pilots that were furloughed are below both of them.

Pilot #4768 has almost 19 years of active service. He was NEVER furloughed. Flew the line the entire time. Now lets look at the first West pilot now senior to him. That would be pilot #4765, with a hire date of 4/4/2005. When the merger was announced, this pilot had 2 MONTHS of service. Why shoud he go above a 19 YEAR pilot that was never furloughed?

You look at that one point and you just "get it." There are some serious structural issues wrong with this senority allocation. Most of it does not make sense.

In the end, when you steal senority from people you are going to have serious consequences. We all know life is unfair, but this is just one big cluster f&*k of epic proportions. Can you say TEAMSTERS?

Later,
Eye

 

[Pennsylvania_born]

So we're supposed to sit back and watch DECADES of seniority get flushed down the toilet, while some newbie Westie enjoys the fruits of our sacrifice. How about keeping everything separate? Disrespectful? How about voting NO to every contract presented? Disrespectful? This is going to be two VERY divided pilot groups if they're put together. Keep 'em separate, that way, there is no disrespect to anyone.(Unless you somehow feel entitled to my Paris trip out of Philly)...

Hi, I am a "westie" and I have a few comments.

Your decades of seniority were flushed down the toilet way before some of you found out the name was not American(emphasis on the "n")West. The furloughs and cutbacks were all caused by many reasons, none of which had to do with America West Airlines or their pilots. You know your history better than me. Agony Airlines, Colodny, Scofield, deregulation, Piedmont merger, PSA merger, five fatal accidents in five years, gouging passengers for the highest yield in the country,Wolfe, Gangwal, 9-11, closing DCA for a long period, no western market, ancient decrepid 767's competing with newer wide bodies, Metro Jet, code sharing, inability to compete with Southwest's eastern move, Jet Blue, an inefficient mix of narrow body jets including DC-9's, F-28's, F-100's, B-737-200,-300 and -400, Alabama pension, Dave Seymour, yada,yada,yada.

Those jobs were gone and attrition was the only way to get them back,,,, slowly and painfully.

The airline was in a corporate position similar to someone with several ex-wives, several children and step-children,upside down on their mortgage, lost money on adult toys, blew more on gambling and travel, bankrupt, and working within their two weeks notice of losing their job. The past is water under the bridge and only the lessons learned have an positive value.

Now, you could save yourselves a lot of heartache if you are an east pilot who had their heart set on DOH and are now spinning out of control and unable to deal with this award professionally. Look at the merger in general as a new lease on life, a fresh start with new money and a new plan. Consider the west pilots as bringing to the table a viable,large narrow body hub in PHX, and a small, specialized hub in LAS, similar to BOS,LGA or DCA.The wide body flying has been preserved, and international in general has been added, with the additional 757's and announced plans for expansion. You have had 300 some recalls, not only for attrition,but to staff this small amount of growth. Just play connect the dots on the route map and you can see the trememdous potential for additional domestic growth, when we get our act together.

Very few pilots will bid west to east or vice versa, and the operations will be able to operate in parellel for a while. Hating each other just weakens our ability to negotiate a new and more generous contract, and, it gives the growing airlines who have their act together, like Southwest, JetBlue and AirTran, as well as each post CH-11 legacy and unknown competiton like Virgin America a huge advantage over us.

I don't think DOH was ever a realistic result and your union leaders and/or negotiators and lawyers got caught up in the old political hurricane of promising everything but not being able to deliver. Think about how successful a union official would have been in getting elected or appointed to an important position if their platform had been something like seeking a fair seniority integration! They would have been laughed off the property! The DOH target was based on old ALPA merger policy and not realistic. Do you really think 1500 furloughed east pilots would usurp 5/6ths of the current AWA pilots, get retrained and take over the PHX and LAS domicile?

We will only see some positive results from this merger if we work together. I look forward to flying with you guys.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

You look at that one point and you just "get it." There are some serious structural issues wrong with this senority allocation. Most of it does not make sense.

In the end, when you steal senority from people you are going to have serious consequences. We all know life is unfair, but this is just one big cluster f&*k of epic proportions. Can you say TEAMSTERS?

Later,
Eye

You look at this point and try to "get it." Nobody stole anything from you. You GAVE it to them. Everything makes sense you went all-in and AWA went all-in and you lost. Can you say WHINERS?

 

[Art at ISP]

Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps being divisive is not the way to go? Denying jumpseats, calling in sick--I don't think any of this will help--although it might hurt in the end.

Is there no practical solution to this?

From the outside, this thread makes both sides look a little childish-and I say that with all due respect. I agree the decision is ridiculous and not fair, but sick calls and finger pointing East vs. West isn't going to fix it. All the sick calls will do is make it harder for us to count on US for reliable transportation. Like I said before--we already have many reasons to move on--and many more FF's than I could imagine ARE leaving....can you afford the revenue drain?

Like I said I don't have a dog in this fight except to sympathize with those who have lost so much and now this--but if this starts affecting operations and puts customers out any more than they already have been, then it does affect me and my constituency.

It seems to me that perhaps you should all try working TOGETHER instead of against each other....

Just my 2 cents.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I agree the decision is ridiculous and not fair

Art,

Don't assume anything from the rhetoric in the various threads.......

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

When the merger was announced, this pilot had 2 MONTHS of service. Why shoud he go above a 19 YEAR pilot that was never furloughed?

Remember... USAir was going to liquidate, so he had no career expectations.

Problem is if it was gonna liquidate for this individual and all the furloughs below him, then it was also going to liquidate for all the pilots above him too. Ergo all the USAir pilots should have been stapled.

Nicko can't have it both ways. Either they were going to liquidate or not. Staple because it was gonna liquidate or slot based on LOS because it was gonna survive. B)

 

[ussnark]

I look forward to flying with you guys.

It has been a long time since I have heard such a mangled "history" of USAir.

I don't think I have ever heard the root beer people described as "American West", though US east does indeed have their share of Neanderthals.

The "fresh start" you mention, involves more debt, not less, something the rooties have lived with apparently without awareness for, what, a couple of years. When did you guys start, again?

and, I bet you can't wait to try to exercise your windfall.......

 

[flynomore]

American West is what the Parking Shuttle guy used to announce at the first stop in DCA from the Long Term lots.

Since the crew bus only ran on the half hour, we spent a fair amount of time on that bus to and from work.

"First Stop: American, American Eagle, American West, Northwest...."

Do you really think 1500 furloughed east pilots would usurp 5/6ths of the current AWA pilots, get retrained and take over the PHX and LAS domicile?

No and don't let the facts get in your way either. The conditions and restrictions allowed each side to have their piece. What you guys now get is all of the attrition due to your winning the Lotto. It is intriquing that you all use Vegas references so often.

From the AAA proposal:


7. America West pilots shall be entitled to the following domicile protection:

a. An America West pilot involuntarily displaced from a position in PHX or LAS shall have a priority right to reinstatement to that position or an equivalent position in PHX or LAS ahead of a pre-merger US Airways pilot if a vacancy in that position is posted for bidding effective during the life of these conditions and restrictions or within seven months from the pilot’s displacement, whichever affords the longer protection. For purposes of this domicile protection, B737 and A320 captain positions shall be deemed equivalent as shall first officer positions on the B737 and A320. This provision shall not modify the aggregate allotments of the America West pilot group specified in Paragraphs 1, 2, 3 and 4 of these conditions and restrictions. A pilot who voluntarily fails to exercise his right of reinstatement when available to him/her shall forfeit his/her right with respect to ensuing vacancies, except that a pilot shall not forfeit his/her right of reinstatement by bypassing a position in a domicile other than the domicile to which he/she was assigned at the time he/she was displaced. Nor shall a forfeiture of the right of reinstatement occur as a result of a B737 pilot bypassing an A320 position, or vice versa.

b. In addition to the protection specified in Paragraph 7.a. above, the America West pilot group shall be entitled to a total of 869 captain positions in PHX and LAS on B737/A320/B757 aircraft, or replacement aircraft. This provision shall not increase the America West pilot group’s aggregate allotment of captain positions specified in Paragraphs 1, 2, 3 and 4 of these conditions and restrictions.

 

[Pennsylvania_born]

It has been a long time since I have heard such a mangled "history" of USAir.

I don't think I have ever heard the root beer people described as "American West", though US east does indeed have their share of Neanderthals.

The "fresh start" you mention, involves more debt, not less, something the rooties have lived with apparently without awareness for, what, a couple of years. When did you guys start, again?

and, I bet you can't wait to try to exercise your windfall.......

Well Sir, why don't you enlighten me and readers of this forum as to how the history of the airline ties into you losing some 1500 pilots to furlough. I don't think it is going to be a very positive picture. I intend no disrespect either. Like it or not, this is my airline too. I plan to make the best of the situation. My point is that AWA or their pilots had nothing to do with the furloughs, reductions in pay, FAR schedule, loss of your pension or the two bankruptcies. We can, just possibly, work together to earn some of better pay, retirement and work rules in the future

I don't like debt either, I would especially like to see us own some planes, but that is the way big biz is financed today, only when the investors think they will recieve a commensurate return for their risk.

Do you mean AWA? August 1, 1983

Who are the rooties? Do they drink root beer? Serve root beer? I prefer birch beer, being from PA and all.

What windfall? I went from the 5th percentile to the 14th. My only windfall might be the one I share with you and 35000 other employees if we get this airline up and running on a world class level. If we work together we can get a good contract, and, we can make this a great airline.

 

[phasersonstun2]

Doug has everything he wants on a platter...

1. Chaos amongst the pilot group with no hope of unity.

2. No pressure from the east to merge the pilot group.

3. Distraction from his DUI conviction.

This job is not what I signed up for, but I'll
keep it because the real world jobs out there SUCK

 

[CactusFlyr]

I would like to hear from a west pilot how they think the following is fair. I will not use names, but if you look at the award, you can see them. To identify the pilots, I will use the "new" seniority number.

Pilot #4768 was the junior active pilot from the East. He was hired 7/18/1988. The pilot right below him is the only West pilot junior to him (Save Dave). And of course all the pilots that were furloughed are below both of them.

Pilot #4768 has almost 19 years of active service. He was NEVER furloughed. Flew the line the entire time. Now lets look at the first West pilot now senior to him. That would be pilot #4765, with a hire date of 4/4/2005. When the merger was announced, this pilot had 2 MONTHS of service. Why shoud he go above a 19 YEAR pilot that was never furloughed?

Dave Odell is a flying pilot.

There is no scenario in which a then furloughed East FO should be flying while Dave is furloughed. This relationship should never be reversed. Period.

 

[qwerty]

It was your million dollar pensions, $200k salaries and part-time work that got US Airways in this mess to begin with. Be happy you still have a list to #### about.

 

[ussnark]

It was your million dollar pensions, $200k salaries and part-time work that got US Airways in this mess to begin with. Be happy you still have a list to #### about.

OK, in the face of pilots (none from US) hauling off tens of millions of dollars just in their pensions, no one ever had a $200k salary (except the brown-nosing mgt types) and I have no idea what you mean by "part-time". Explain, please.

Let me see.

US pilots contributed over 30% of their compensation to a retirement plan that actually yielded less than $1200 per month.

The average salary at US never exceeded $130,000 per year (except for poopoo cranium management types).

Do you get the same poopoo from the Bush WMD Iraq program? Must be. That makes you a mushroom.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

It was your million dollar pensions, $200k salaries and part-time work that got US Airways in this mess to begin with. Be happy you still have a list to #### about.

Yup,

They used to work for a real airline. One that used to pay the best and hire the best. Guess you guys never knew what that was at AWA. What's even worse, your qualifications are so sub par you wouldn't even get an interview.

Later,
Eye