Pilot seniority arbitration award is out

[Elevation]

USeast f/a here. Please tell me what I can do to help change this? What number can I call or whom can I write? No offense to anyone in the west, but no one should have to retire out of the right seat.

1-800-GETOVERIT

Call now! operators are standing by.

 

[cactusflyer]

I guess hindsight is 20-20, but alot of heartache could have been avoided if they had come to a reasonable solution without the need for an arbitrator.....

No truer words have been posted. Surely the pilots and the reps on both sides weighed the risks of taking this to binding arbitration? There is always a chance an arbitrator won't rule in your favor. I won't pretend to understand the complete ramifications of this ruling (since I'm not a pilot) but I can see why there is such anger and frustration. I'm just not sure the anger should be directed at the west. They didn't write the opinion, Nicolau did.

This is one hell of an industry we work in isn't it? Clearly not one for the faint of heart. Regardless of how this all turns out, I myself, am looking forward to working with the east...BOTH the fa's and the pilots. That is IF this airline is ever really fully merged. 😉



[deleted by mod]

 

[Jetsetter2Ord]

Well the arbitrator did what he felt was fair.

The workgroup will just have to live with the decision and move forward. Not all things will sound fair to everyone, just look at the UNFAIR way the non rev policy went..it was not a fair way for ALL employees, and we have to live with that decision as well.

So we all have the option of putting our head up and moving forward or take the high road and leave this industry.

 

[autofixer]

We do not have to live with this at all. I will not leave the industry until I can cut as large a swath as I can; it is time for "Sherman's march to the sea" 2.0. Let's leave the Westies nothing, after all they are going to inherit the world in a few years, but that was not enough, they wanted and got, my seniority too.

Burn 'er down boys!!!

 

[cactusflyer]

......................
Burn 'er down boys!!!

:blink:

 

[JetMonkey]

We do not have to live with this at all. I will not leave the industry until I can cut as large a swath as I can; it is time for "Sherman's march to the sea" 2.0. Let's leave the Westies nothing, after all they are going to inherit the world in a few years, but that was not enough, they wanted and got, my seniority too.

Burn 'er down boys!!!

Man, you're one serious peice of work. You really think we all dancing around a bon fire over here don't ya. How many times do I have to say it, we did NOT want this merger to begin with. But since it was forced down our throats, I should't have to pay with my career for what old management did to you guys in the first place.

Enjoy you're non-revin.

 

[Phoenix]

Man, you're one serious peice of work.

I think he means ALPA. 🙄

 

[luvn737s]

USeast f/a here. Please tell me what I can do to help change this? What number can I call or whom can I write? No offense to anyone in the west, but no one should have to retire out of the right seat.

Don't you really mean no eastie should retire out of the right seat? How did the westie contribute to the furloughs that put the eastie in the right seat, and why should he have to pay for it?

The east F/A's saw no compassion for their fellow F/A's on the west by seeking a fair compromise, so it's no surprise they can't recognize a fair solution when they see it.

 

[Dog Wonder]

Don't you really mean no eastie should retire out of the right seat? How did the westie contribute to the furloughs that put the eastie in the right seat, and why should he have to pay for it?

The east F/A's saw no compassion for their fellow F/A's on the west by seeking a fair compromise, so it's no surprise they can't recognize a fair solution when they see it.

What is the 'fair' solution?

1-800-GETOVERIT

Call now! operators are standing by.

Elise Eberwhine will answer your call.

 

[cactusflyer]

Don't you really mean no eastie should retire out of the right seat? How did the westie contribute to the furloughs that put the eastie in the right seat, and why should he have to pay for it?

The east F/A's saw no compassion for their fellow F/A's on the west by seeking a fair compromise, so it's no surprise they can't recognize a fair solution when they see it.

With all due respect, the east F/A's didn't need to or have to seek a "fair compromise". Our AFA merger policy dictates that seniority be merged by DOH and for us to blame the east for that is just plain wrong. In all honesty even IF, for some bizarre reason, the east had wanted to merge the seniority differently, it would have had to go before the BOD. Then all LECP's would have had to vote and it still would have ended up DOH because of to many other AFA carriers with no interest in changing merger policy. The west made a valiant attempt to change/ammend the AFA merger policy as it is written in the C&B. It was, in fact, voted down in October of 2005. So it's DOH. Lot's of us all already called 1-800-GETOVERIT. It helped! 😉

Most of us have moved on to other issues, like getting a good COMBINED contract that benefits BOTH the east and the west.

 

[Itestwell]

With all do respect, the east F/A's didn't need to or have to seek a "fair compromise". Our AFA merger policy dictates that seniority be merged by DOH and for us to blame the east for that is just plain wrong. In all honesty even IF, for some bizarre reason, the east had wanted to merge the seniority differently, it would have had to go before the BOD. Then all LECP's would have had to vote and it still would have ended up DOH because of to many other AFA carriers with no interest in changing merger policy. The west made a valiant attempt to change/ammend the AFA merger policy as it is written in the C&B. It was, in fact, voted down in October of 2005. So it's DOH. Lot's of us all already called 1-800-GETOVERIT. It helped! 😉

Most of us have moved on to other issues, like getting a good COMBINED contract that benefits BOTH the east and the west.

First off, I am sure you meant with all "due" respect....

As a US East FA, I am not so sure we can equate an AFA DOH ruling with an ALPA seniority ruling, and then simply shove a "1-800-GET-OVER-IT" down their throats, and tell them to "move on". The West AFA did what they "had to do" for their membership, knowing full well that DOH within the FA group would never, ever change. Period. Valiant attempt, but be real.....

Pilots, OTOH, are paid based on equipment, etc, and their "career expectations" are a gauge that we, as FA's (and obviously you) cannot relate to. Sooo, I would say, better to stick to what you know. I stay out of that, so should you.

The East pilots know that the FA's are behind them, and, while this is not a "slam" to the West, we certainly know when an injustice has been handed down.

That said, I agree, we need to focus on a fair combined contract. It will take time, and solidarity among the groups is key.

Pass the word.....

 

[cactusflyer]

First off, I am sure you meant with all "due" respect....

As a US East FA, I am not so sure we can equate an AFA DOH ruling with an ALPA seniority ruling, and then simply shove a "1-800-GET-OVER-IT" down their throats, and tell them to "move on". The West AFA did what they "had to do" for their membership, knowing full well that DOH within the FA group would never, ever change. Period. Valiant attempt, but be real.....

Pilots, OTOH, are paid based on equipment, etc, and their "career expectations" are a gauge that we, as FA's (and obviously you) cannot relate to. Sooo, I would say, better to stick to what you know. I stay out of that, so should you.

The East pilots know that the FA's are behind them, and, while this is not a "slam" to the West, we certainly know when an injustice has been handed down.

That said, I agree, we need to focus on a fair combined contract. It will take time, and solidarity among the groups is key.

Pass the word.....

I did and it was corrected. Thanks. 🙄

Clearly the intent of my post was taken completely out of context. I was only trying to point out to Luvn737's that we (as you so eloquently stated) cannot "equate an AFA DOH ruling with an ALPA seniority ruling". I know what the west "had" to do for their membership. I had a front row seat for that show. "Valiant" was tongue in cheek.

Where in my post did I say the PILOTS needed to "move on"? I didn't. I said most of "us", meaning F/A's. In fact, the word pilot doesn't appear anywhere in my post.

Where in my post did I say THEY should call 1-800-GETOVERIT? I didn't. An attempt at humor that was admittedly feeble at best. Hence the 😉

Bottom line, I guess it's just easier to assume a post is always made with the worst possible tone intended. That way you can "slam" away guilt free. My post was a direct response to Luvn and his implication that the east should have shown compassion. It was not meant to address any other issue, hence no other direct quotes from other members in my post.

By the way, not all pilots are paid based on equipment. Please don't assume that I can't relate to what some of the pilots are going through. You don't know me or my family member on the EAST that knows all about career expectations and the lack thereof....aviation industry is funny that way. It really is a small world and makes for lively conversation at family gatherings. 🙂

 

[Itestwell]

I did and it was corrected. Thanks. 🙄

Clearly the intent of my post was taken completely out of context. I was only trying to point out to Luvn737's that we (as you so eloquently stated) cannot "equate an AFA DOH ruling with an ALPA seniority ruling". I know what the west "had" to do for their membership. I had a front row seat for that show. "Valiant" was tongue in cheek.

Where in my post did I say the PILOTS needed to "move on"? I didn't. I said most of "us", meaning F/A's. In fact, the word pilot doesn't appear anywhere in my post.

Where in my post did I say THEY should call 1-800-GETOVERIT? I didn't. An attempt at humor that was admittedly feeble at best. Hence the 😉

Oh. Sorry. I guess I just missed the intended "humor" in an embattled thread about a severely lopsided pilot arbitration. My apologies.

So, who should have called 1800 GET OVER IT? The West AFA? There was nothing for the West FA's to "get over"; that was the AFA policy, plain and simple. Period. West AFA made an attempt to change that, simply because they had to in order to retain membership confidence. We all, both East and West, knew that was a joke. That is why I thought you were referring to the pilots when you made your " 1 800 GET OVER IT" reference.

Now, enough whining about AFA, and back to the pilots....

 

[JAMAKE1]

Cactus Flyer:

Your response to luvn737s was totally appropriate . The AFA bylaws are written for and apply to every carrier under its umbrella and therefore, there was nothing uncompromising on the part of the East F/A's when it came to seniority integration. I think that historically, DOH has been the most equitable solution for seniority integration, and a method I continue to advocate today (and I was with PSA during the PS/US and PI/US mergers). It is indeed, refreshing from my vantage point, to read a posting where someone like yourself can accept things as they are and move forward.

I am not going to pretend that I know the least bit about pilot seniority integration, but from the seat of passive observer, I would imagine that there is little recourse since the joint negotiating committee agreed to binding arbitration. I suppose that is the big gamble one makes, when both parties agree to binding arbitration. While I empathize with my former colleagues on the East side, throwing temper tantrums, having sick-outs, and causing work slow-downs will be more self-destructive to themselves than having to live with any of the findings of an independent arbitrator.

 

[lgwcalling]

OK while not knowing all of the particulars of the situation I can't help but ponder what the "Real Deal" is here??

If Jerry Glass is involved somewhere in the mix, the other shoe will soon drop. Might be best to let this loss/victory go and keep your eyes open as to the next move because those on the East should know one is coming.

Good point Piney! You can bet that that someone as sleezy as Jerry Glass is sleeping comfortably tonight on his Karl Rove/Machiavelli(*) adorned pillow cases - a gift from DoUgIe from his trip to the Underworld Happy Hour. People like Jerry Glass masturbate to our in-fighting and hide their cumrags under their pile of Ann Coulter/Bill O'Reilly/Sean Hannity magazines (I'll never call them books!) knowing their momma has grown to old to pry.

I'm thrilled that AFA has something as simple and sensible as DOH. That's not to say that we do not have our own seniority issues (the plight of our Reserves). ALPA needs to get their house in order and fight another day with the class that becomes Pilots! Please US Pilots (East & West) -don't let these lazy/fear-mongering/pseudo-strategists prevail!

(*) "A Captain ought, among all the other actions of his, endeavor with every art to divide the forces of the enemy, either by making him suspicious of his men in whom he trusted, or by giving him cause that he has to separate his forces, and, because of this, become weaker." - MACHIAVELLI