Pilot Thoughts, Ideas, Beliefs...

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...also keep in mind that lower rates turn into new routes and flying opportunities. The result is more efficient lines typically...also a result, more left seat opportunities...for all a/c sizes. So...do you truly always loose 30%?
 
luv2-

by the way, your math was still wrong...the subsequent example you criticized was correct.
 
...but as shown, the pilots of Delta are grossly overpaid based on market conditions and industry supply. You still haven't overcome that. The problem, however, is the complete lack of regard for any future for Delta.

As for Bear's thought that ALPA will offer 18% at the last min...I just get the feeling that Jerry is serious about putting the company in a position for long term prosperity. As such, he will remain determined to get the pilot costs to a competitive level...
 
NewHampshire Black Bears said:
What Jerry "WANTS", and what Jerry "GETS", is going to be in "STARK CONTRAST"

NH/BB's
Click to expand...
True. Just as true is that fact that what Gerry wants vs what he NEEDS are two vastly different amounts.
 
flyhigh said:
...but as shown, the pilots of Delta are grossly overpaid based on market conditions and industry supply. You still haven't overcome that. The problem, however, is the complete lack of regard for any future for Delta.
Click to expand...
Ok Fly,

If Delta had the same pilot cost structure as those at other major carriers, would Delta still have lost money last quarter? Will pilot costs be the sole determining factor as to the future of Delta Airlines? Have employee concessions saved US Airways, or is more a matter of bottom line RASM's vs. CASM's?
Your claim that the pilots have a complete disregard for Delta's future couldn't be further from the truth. If that were true how would you explain the '96 contract? If that were true, why would we be negotiating our own pay cuts? If we have a total disregard, why not full pay to the last day? After all, I would want to hoard as much much money as possbile before this ship sinks.
Your claim is simply ludicrous.
We need this airline to survive in order to reap the benefits of a long career. I gaurantee you I stand to lose as much, if not more than you, if Delta ceases to exist.
Am I willing to take a pay cut? Yes. Will I agree to 30% to 40%? No.
 
luv2fly said:
Will I agree to 30% to 40%? No.
Click to expand...
Good for the DL pilots. Are your Exec's taking a 30-40% paycut? I think we all know the answer to that! Keep up the fight and stick it to management. They will give in down the road because, they know DL can't exist without pilots. Being that you're the only smart work group on the property with a union, you get to negotiate your pay and everything else.

Just look at US, they're asking for more $$$ from pilots and f/a's.
 
With the levels DL is seeking, DL would have broken even for 2003 (profitable Q4) and would be profitable in 2004. However, I will say that there are still lots of other cost savings available beyond what the PII's are doing. They do not however, put the company in a long term profitable situation as do changes to our pilot rates.

As for my statement that it is total disregard, I believe the 9% is more of a way for ALPA to say they did their part as opposed to making a truly concerted effort at putting Delta in a competitive position. Regarding your thoughts re: USAirways...I think we can all agree that US has many other problems. One of which continues to be a highly unproductive workforce due to structural reasons (ala TWA). Conversely, however, I think if you take the examples of AA, CO, & UA (minus bankruptcy costs). These airlines have all had great sucess through cost custs in the wage & benefits area...
 
michael707767 said:
NewHampshire Black Bears said:
What Jerry "WANTS", and what Jerry "GETS", is going to be in "STARK CONTRAST"

NH/BB's
Click to expand...
True. Just as true is that fact that what Gerry wants vs what he NEEDS are two vastly different amounts.
Click to expand...
michael707/767,

Point taken.

But there is only one "bottom line".
And the bottom line is that ALPA will NEVER(and I support them wholeheartedly) give grinstein 30+ in "total" pay cuts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND,
As the only union on the property, there is "NOTHING" grinstein can do about it.

Could grinstein purposely "tank" the airline towards BK-11? Yes he could, but unlikely.

Could grinstein shrink main line/tranfering flying to comair etc. ??
Could grinstein, by shrinking, cause a lot of furloughs ???

The answer to the above is YES he could/will.

WHY,
Because the "majority" of the main line guys/gals WILL NOT GIVE DL 30+%, and IMHO, THEY SHOULD'NT HAVE TO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Direct(possible) "selfish" remarks, someplace else. They won't play here !!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's
AA/AFL-CIO
 
They don't need to play here...they're reality. Pilot costs are the only costs that remain out of sync with the rest of the industry. While the rest of the industry has improved...some players more dramatically than others (see AA), DL has continued to loose money at an unsustainable rate. All other labor groups are in line with industry average and have given in one way or another...including mgmt which is currently paid under market rate.

Certain costs can't move i.e. fuel. Other can only be moved if negotiated through the courts or the threat of going there as AA did i.e. aircraft leases. Then there's pay & benefits...


In the pay & benefits arena all workgroups minus the pilots have taken cuts to where their compensation is just above market level (about 2-5%). This is where DL tries to keep all workgroup...just above average, which recognizes the fact that DL employees typically have slightly higher productivity.

So...given those realities, what would any of you do? There are no other cost components we could even eliminate, let alone cut 30%, minus leases and be profitable. There is one cost where we are at a significant disadvantage...and it is the one cost that can make this a competitive and properous company for the long term for all employees.
 
flyhigh,
Everything you've said here may be (STATISTICALLY) correct.
But you still hav'nt told me HOW "grinch stein" is going to FORCE 30+% out of ALPA?

Because virtually EVERYBODY at DL has had the chance(one time or another) to be represented by a union(read: PROTECTION), "AND REFUSED", don't expect ALPA to feel sorry for you.

The fact is, ALPA does feel your pain 9+%, If your really lucky, mabey they"ll feel your pain 20%.

BUT NEVER 30+%

It IS, what it IS !!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's
 
NewHampshire Black Bears said:
flyhigh,
Everything you've said here may be (STATISTICALLY) correct.
But you still hav'nt told me HOW "grinch stein" is going to FORCE 30+% out of ALPA?

NH/BB's
Click to expand...
Eventually, the DL pilots will give 30%. It may not happen all at once and it probably won't happen this year....but it will happen eventually. DL, like AMR, will eventually find itself on BK's door and the pilots will have no choice. If DL goes BK, that 30% will seem like a day in the park.

Notice how the amount DALPA is willing to give keeps growing.

Two years ago, DALPA said they weren't going to give anything.
Last year, DALPA said they would give 9% plus give up the May 1 raise.
Now, DALPA is talking about giving up 15-20%.

Notice the trend.

I agree that DALPA will likely never give all 30% at once. They'll probably give 15-20% now and then in a few years be forced to give another 15-20% during the next economic downturn.

The industry is in a deflationary revenue trend and there's no union in the world that can stop it....just ask the good folks at AMR, UAL and US.
 
Looking at it from ALPA's perspective, they are in a tough position. Giving up 20-30% will put pilots out of houses, and lower the starting point for the next round of negotiations. The rank and file pilot will resent ALPA selling them out. It is a lose/ lose for them.

However, I agree with flyhigh. The company has to reduce costs and increase productivity to remain viable. Most of the other pieces of the cost reduction puzzle are falling into place.

It is pretty obvious what will happen if ALPA does not conceed what managment feels is necessary for Delta to survive. A trip to Chapter 11.

I hope that that is not the case. While a Section 1113 hearing may get the company what it wants, a court imposed solution will never be as good as a solution where the company and ALPA can agree.

As a side note, the other union on the property is not warming up to concessions either The dispatchers have also rejected concessions, see [URL="http:///index.php?showtopic=9536&st=0&#entry113694"]/index.php...=0&#entry113694 [/URL].
 
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