Pilots at "standstill"

MiAAmi

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Aug 21, 2002
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AA, pilots at 'standstill' on proposed China flight

American has made a huge push to win government approval for non-stop flights between Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) and Beijing -- part of the bidding for the latest U.S.-China route being opened up to U.S. airlines. But despite AA's intense lobbying effort with Congress, business leaders and government officials, one hurdle could come from within. The Fort Worth Star-Telegram notes that "the airline still hasn't gotten the backing from one crucial group –- its pilots." The paper says the airline's pilots' union still must OK an agreement that would allow its members to fly the 16-hour DFW-Beijing route. "So far, however, negotiations have been at a standstill. Union leaders say that they want some benefits in return for their approval, but that the airline is balking at any quid pro quo," the Star-Telegram writes.

The paper adds that "the issue could threaten to derail American's application" since regulators may be reluctant to pick AA for the route if there is potential sticking point. AA's current contract with pilots has no provisions for flying beyond an eight-hour maximum, which means the company must negotiate side agreements with the union to permit pilots to fly routes beyond that limit –- something AA did recently for its new service to Delhi and Shanghai. The potential conflict also comes as AA is negotiating a new contract with the union, and "the China flight gives pilots leverage at the bargaining table," the Star-Telegram adds."The pilots have made a lot of sacrifices," says Denny Breslin, an American pilot and spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association. Still, he adds that the union supports AA's effort to expand into China. "We want very much to get the route," Breslin says. "It's important for everybody."
 
Its a bargaining chip when you have the route. It would serve them to fight hard to get it and then force the company's hand in order for them to be able to fly it.

When the awards are announced and AA doesn't get the authority whether due to the pilots of not. It will not be any bargaining chip for them.
 
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that regardless of the APA's grandstanding, AA's chances of getting the route are pretty slim. My money is on CO's EWR-PEK application getting the nod, with UAL getting backup authority for IAD-PEK.
 
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It wouldn't be the first time the pilots have shot themselves in the foot...IE their famous "sickout"
 
Bow thine heads and avert thine eyes, the pilot Lords are not pleased!
Yea mere mechanic gripes be just disgruntled peasant whinings. When pilot Lords complain they surely are justifiably indignant
:down: :down:
 
...and thus the reason union membership is at a low and the perception of unions is negative. There's nothing illegal from a regulation perspective that prevents them from flying the route, just a desire to not work more than 8 hours.
 
...and thus the reason union membership is at a low and the perception of unions is negative. There's nothing illegal from a regulation perspective that prevents them from flying the route, just a desire to not work more than 8 hours.
What a jackass premise. You need to stop paroting so called conservative republican anti union baloney. Many work rule and vacation benefits that you probably enjoy were achieved thanks to unions. Union membership has declined in this country because most of our union jobs, along with our industrial might (with a few exceptions) has been shipped overseas. Thats called globalization. Globalization is not about giving the consummer more bang for their buck. Its about further enriching a few powerful business elite on the backs of slave labor. The same people that shipped out those once highly paid union jobs will kick you to the curb once they have no need for you because someone can do your job cheaper in New Delhi. I hope you don't plan on getting old because they'll have no use for you then either. :down: :down:
 
...and thus the reason union membership is at a low and the perception of unions is negative. There's nothing illegal from a regulation perspective that prevents them from flying the route, just a desire to not work more than 8 hours.

Actually Flyhigh,

You are wrong. Its not the unions or lazy pilots......The pilots aren't allowed to fly more than 8 hours.

The FAR's (federal air regulations-All airlines fall under Part 121) limit a pilot's flight time no more than 8 hours in the seat. Thats why you have to have one relief pilot (usually a First Officer) on flights between 8 hours and 11+59 hours and two relief pilots for flights over 12 hours. (sometimes 2 F/O's, sometimes another Captain and 1 F/O)

Yes the pilots are working but are not allowed to be in control of the aircraft (as defined as being in one of the two seats with the flight controls) more than 8 hours. Thats why we have breaks on long haul flights.

AMR and the APA obviously have some sort of protocol dealing with new long haul flying, one that both sides agreed to do/follow. And thats where the current stalemate is.

Many fault the APA is being shortsighted/greedy/whining/ to blame for the stalemate......without knowing what AMR managment refuses to negotiate. The pilots may have asked for something entirely resonable, but managment refuses to budge, see the no "quid pro quo" comment in the article.
So perhaps managment is the one being shortsighted? If the route is such a key for profits/prestige/being a global carrier and managment refuses to give back something elswhere in the contract...than maybe it isnt that important to them.

The fine art of the negotiations.....

DC
 
One of the pilots can correct me, but the 14+ hour flying side agreement for ORD-DEL and ORD-PVG clarified crewing as one CA and three FO's. Since the city pairs are specifically mentioned, AA can't just add other 14 hour markets (e.g. ORD-HKG) without amending the side letter.

Absent an amended agreement, ORD-PEK would need to be crewed with two CA's and two FO's, which not only makes the per flight hour cost more expensive, but it also creates a need for more 777 CA's in the ORD base.

I'm sure AA has told APA that it needs to be included in the overall contract negotiations, just like they did with APFA and extending recall rights for the 2001 furloughees.

So, it's not really a matter of enhancing safety (unless you believe that flying to PEK is inherently more dangerous than flying to DEL or PVG) as much as it is APA being in a position to give AA some relief here assuming AA meets their price. Some call that extortion, some call it negotiating from a position of power...
 
The LOA is for ORD-DEL flying only. ORD-PVG goes under the same contract rules as ORD-NRT. 1 CA, 3 FO, 16 hrs sked on-duty, drop at 18 hrs.
 
story here In a stunning reversal, APA, has authorized American Airlines to immediately begin flight operations between Dallas-Fort Worth and Beijing, China, pending the Department of Transportation's decision on route authority for new China service.
 
story here In a stunning reversal, APA, has authorized American Airlines to immediately begin flight operations between Dallas-Fort Worth and Beijing, China, pending the Department of Transportation's decision on route authority for new China service.


Sort of....did you notice the part where the APA has said all management has to do is to sign the Letter of Agreement?

APA has said here is what it will take for us to fly this should we get it, will managment agree?

From the article:

APA presented American Airlines management with a signed letter of agreement today that authorizes DFW-Beijing service........This letter of agreement specifies what the pilots will receive in exchange for providing the necessary contractual relief.......

"We are seeking a number of no-cost items for our pilots, while the minimal cost associated with the remaining items will be more than offset by the additional revenue and cost savings potential our agreement will generate," said Hunter. "Given our pilots' role as critical partners in our airline's ongoing recovery, we are confident that American Airlines will acknowledge this agreement as a fair exchange of value.

The games continue.

DC
 
Perhaps the otherwise empty cabin jumpseat can be reciprocated to allow flight attendant to take an otherwise empty cockpit jumpseat?
 
Perhaps the otherwise empty cabin jumpseat can be reciprocated to allow flight attendant to take an otherwise empty cockpit jumpseat?

I think that would be fine with the APA (not that they "own" the jumpseat any more than flight attendants "own" the FA jumpseats in the back). However, there's a lot more to the cockpit jumpseat regs than to a cabin jumpseat.
 
Many work rule and vacation benefits that you probably enjoy were achieved thanks to unions. Union membership has declined in this country because most of our union jobs, along with our industrial might (with a few exceptions) has been shipped overseas. Thats called globalization. Globalization is not about giving the consummer more bang for their buck. :down: :down:


And thanks to the TWU, many of the work rules and benefits achieved over decades, were taken away at the blink of an eye!
 

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