I don't understand how the pilots would want to merge with usair?Their pilots haven't even been able to settle their seniority issues and now you add APA who wants things done their way or noway! I get their pissed at management but eventually you have to let it go before you destroy everything . APA think carefully what your doing before its too late!
pilots going to merger talks wheres the TWU
- Thread starter paul1
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Just to get away from our current management???
It would be just like stepping from one frying pan to another...
I agree 100%... Their house certainly isn't in order over there
Just read a news release that the Pilots of AA still approve a merger with USAir. They feel a merger is in the best interest of the pilots for the long term survival. Sounds like the pilots union only cares about the pilots and no other work group or the rest of the company. Screw Parker and the AA pilots union leadership. It not just about the pilots.
The rest of us are getting screwed bad enough and know our own pilots union leadership is taking the I Want Mine Attitude. USAir is so screwed up. They have open contracts, mediation, strike vote and so and so on . Yet Parker makes promises to the AA unions and he can not even settle his own house. If a merger with USAir does succeed AA will be finished. There will be so much internal fighting over work rules, seniority not to mention the incompatibility of fleets. Who is kidding who?
This merger deal stinks. If anyone thinks that it will benefit AA for a better future they must be smoking some good crack. USAir needs us not the other way around.
The rest of us are getting screwed bad enough and know our own pilots union leadership is taking the I Want Mine Attitude. USAir is so screwed up. They have open contracts, mediation, strike vote and so and so on . Yet Parker makes promises to the AA unions and he can not even settle his own house. If a merger with USAir does succeed AA will be finished. There will be so much internal fighting over work rules, seniority not to mention the incompatibility of fleets. Who is kidding who?
This merger deal stinks. If anyone thinks that it will benefit AA for a better future they must be smoking some good crack. USAir needs us not the other way around.
Super FLUF
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Some of you guys are unbelievable. You elect a lousy union to represent you, then elect a bunch of weak dicks to represent you at the table. After you get a lousy deal and get cut out of the merger talks, you blame......................the pilots. Quit scapegoating others for your own self-created problems.
Where is YOUR plan for this airline? Some of the most well respected airline analysts in the industry are all saying that a merger with USAirways is the way to go. You obviously have a better plan. So, what is it? Please tell me you aren't considering the ToHo "stand alone" plan. The same group that has brought us the Cornerstone (aka "Tombstone") plan, visionary shrink-to-profitability schemes, and multi-billion dollar losses now want to lead us to the promised land. Get real.
Put up or shut up.
AMFAinMIAMI
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You are correct we do have a weak/lousy union, but that has been here at AA for as long as I can remember, even before I started. The employees groups at AA have had this work together win together, stuff put to them so long, its just a way of life. They don't know any better. The industry has changed so much in 30 yrs, the job is not what it used to be. Helping the company get through tough times seems to be the way of business theses days but how much does the worker need to give.
Enough is enough. The employees at AA have financed the fleets in the past and now being forced to do it again. Last nights show on the future of AA, showing all the new aircraft and bragging that we here at AA will have the newest fleet of fuel efficient aircraft.
So what, as long as the employees have to subsidize the fares for the passengers its just a job. Pensions, pay, holidays, vacation, all gone in one sense or another. Now the talks of merging with USAir. A pig outfit which has screwed its employees as well.
just as the management team at our last acquisition TWA. Carl Icon took it all from them. Now we have closed most of the hubs they had, laidoff most of the TWA employees, or will, and gave up lots of routes they had as well. Just like Reno, Aircal.
The TWU is the weakest of all the unions here at AA. Bought and paid for, I'd say.
The O/H bases have been treated with kid gloves so that AA can sell the pay concessions. Now that AA just like all the other carriers is contracting work out is there any ruffling. But many here still don't see that OUR union the TWU has sold them out. Lies and give backs.
Continental many yrs ago was a great carrier, then over the yrs management there screwed the employees. Its come back to be a good airline but has now merged with UAL. A carrier with the same type of employees as here at AA. Give backs and bk have taken a life's time worth of benefits and pensions from its workers. The IBT is at CAL & UAL and just like USAir still has work groups working together under separate work rules since they can't seem to merge employees.
The airline biz is trying to re-invent itself, 911 hurt this industry and the employees are being forced to build it back. Jobs are being send over seas, and the NTSB-FAA-HLS are having aircraft worked on at facilities that have one guy signing for all work accomplished. No checks and balances, no drug test, no background check, no training. How many a/c have come back to AA from outsourced work with problems?
Just this yr the seats here at AA.
Pilots make the airline, and as well make the most money. I don't begrudge them at all but when the workers at the bottom have to suffer financially work 20-30 yrs and have it all taken from them over and over, its not a good thing to merge two airlines with pissed off work groups. As far as the F/A go that's a part time job, with lots of away from family time. Not a job which on its own can support a family. So they work another job. (unless husband has good job) You want to merge with a group that has taken a strike vote at USAir, thinking the grass is greener.
I as a mechanic here at AA don't have the answer on how turn the industry around or make AA a better place, now and in the future. I can hope that when AA does come out of bk, it changes the way it treats its employees.
I am doing all I can to help replace the TWU here at AA. I hope that all the mechanics from aircraft - facilities- automotive sign cards so that we can bring a craft union here.
AMFA at AA, sign a card so we can bring an end of the TWU's representation.
You are correct we do have a weak/lousy union, but that has been here at AA for as long as I can remember, even before I started. The employees groups at AA have had this work together win together, stuff put to them so long, its just a way of life. They don't know any better. The industry has changed so much in 30 yrs, the job is not what it used to be. Helping the company get through tough times seems to be the way of business theses days but how much does the worker need to give.
Enough is enough. The employees at AA have financed the fleets in the past and now being forced to do it again. Last nights show on the future of AA, showing all the new aircraft and bragging that we here at AA will have the newest fleet of fuel efficient aircraft.
So what, as long as the employees have to subsidize the fares for the passengers its just a job. Pensions, pay, holidays, vacation, all gone in one sense or another. Now the talks of merging with USAir. A pig outfit which has screwed its employees as well.
just as the management team at our last acquisition TWA. Carl Icon took it all from them. Now we have closed most of the hubs they had, laidoff most of the TWA employees, or will, and gave up lots of routes they had as well. Just like Reno, Aircal.
The TWU is the weakest of all the unions here at AA. Bought and paid for, I'd say.
The O/H bases have been treated with kid gloves so that AA can sell the pay concessions. Now that AA just like all the other carriers is contracting work out is there any ruffling. But many here still don't see that OUR union the TWU has sold them out. Lies and give backs.
Continental many yrs ago was a great carrier, then over the yrs management there screwed the employees. Its come back to be a good airline but has now merged with UAL. A carrier with the same type of employees as here at AA. Give backs and bk have taken a life's time worth of benefits and pensions from its workers. The IBT is at CAL & UAL and just like USAir still has work groups working together under separate work rules since they can't seem to merge employees.
The airline biz is trying to re-invent itself, 911 hurt this industry and the employees are being forced to build it back. Jobs are being send over seas, and the NTSB-FAA-HLS are having aircraft worked on at facilities that have one guy signing for all work accomplished. No checks and balances, no drug test, no background check, no training. How many a/c have come back to AA from outsourced work with problems?
Just this yr the seats here at AA.
Pilots make the airline, and as well make the most money. I don't begrudge them at all but when the workers at the bottom have to suffer financially work 20-30 yrs and have it all taken from them over and over, its not a good thing to merge two airlines with pissed off work groups. As far as the F/A go that's a part time job, with lots of away from family time. Not a job which on its own can support a family. So they work another job. (unless husband has good job) You want to merge with a group that has taken a strike vote at USAir, thinking the grass is greener.
I as a mechanic here at AA don't have the answer on how turn the industry around or make AA a better place, now and in the future. I can hope that when AA does come out of bk, it changes the way it treats its employees.
I am doing all I can to help replace the TWU here at AA. I hope that all the mechanics from aircraft - facilities- automotive sign cards so that we can bring a craft union here.
AMFA at AA, sign a card so we can bring an end of the TWU's representation.
Usair brings nothing to AA but a drunk for a CEO and open contracts. Keep thinking he is a white knight in shinning armor eventually you will wake up. Delta and united didn't want usair now all of a sudden their the savior AA ?
USAir is a mess. Why would we want to add to the mix?
They had all this time to settle their seniority issues and work rules. Did they? NO. They ignored them. All of a sudden Parker makes promises to the AA unions yet he can not settle his own problems. They have no plans for a successful merger because their previous mergers have been less than successful. So what makes you think that this potential merger will work? Past history with USAir proves otherwise.
How long has it been since AmericaWest merged? Still they have TWO pilots unions on the floor with separate work rules and seniority. Add AA to the mix. What will you have? F/A attendants just voted in favor of a strike. MERGER with AA? Are you kidding me? This is like the Obama health care, just vote for it and we will work out the details later. NO thanks.
Oh and BTW if you read my post I blame the Pilots union leadership not the pilots.
Thank you. My point exactly. NOBODY wants USAir except the union leaders at AA.
Even Horton said no thanks. (for now). They have more baggage than AA has.
CactUS4Ever
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So? The component companies that make up US have been there three times, twice in the past decade.
On its own this year, AA has increased its yield and unit revenue far more than has Doug Parker at US. And with the labor savings and other cost cuts, AA is set to be a very profitable airline in 2013.
Broke? $4 billion in cash, so no need to kowtow to DIP lenders nor go begging for exit financing.
Oh, and about those wages: Even with the painful bankruptcy concessions imposed on the AA employees, AA's labor costs are still far higher than at US. Thank all those $125/hr 737/A320 pilots in the East for that. Thank all the US FAs who would need raises of 25% to 35% to bring them up to AA payscales. In the second and third quarters of 2012, AA was profitable (excluding reorg expenses and special items) even before it achieved any wage cuts.
Desperation is setting in among the Tempe execs and for good reason: AA's creditors have plenty of financial data, some of which tends to show that handing a large portion of their AMR claims to US isn't in their best interests. Parker knows it, the creditors know it - and without AA, US is in a world of hurt.
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Many are misconstruing the purpose of the pilots pursuing a merger with USAirways. Many think "the pilots are only embracing USAirways because they offered more money."
That is obviously some of the equation, but not the bulk of it. The most important question is, why did AA go bankrupt? When you look at EVERY SINGLE analysis of AA's woes, they all conclude that this company has a revenue problem. Without fixing that, this company is doomed to the ash heap of history.
This revenue problem was brought on quite simply by mismanagement of the company. We can all sit here and ping ff the idiotic moves that we have seen over the years to contribute to the spectacular collapse we have seen. Regardless of that and who is to blame, we are where we are. There is only one way to fix this revenue problem, and that is through growth.
Look at Horton's plan. Stand alone. What does that get us? How does that get us anywhere different than we have been for the past 10 years? Analysts that have seen the plan all slam it. I remember reading Holly Hegeman's take on the "plan" and she said something to the effect of "they think all they have to do is rape the employees, slash and burn, and the money will come rolling in." Sorry, but that's not the way it works. Raping the employees will only stop the bleeding for so long. As long as the underlying problem remains, you are doomed to repeat history.
To sum up everything written above, this merger is needed just to SURVIVE. Our union was not going to just blindly run into the arms of the person offering the biggest bag of money. What good is an industry leading contract do you if you company isn't going to survive another 5 years?
Do not think for one minute that the pilots or any other work group are giddy about this. This merger is akin to being dragged kicking and screaming to the alter. However, most that have studied the data and analysts presentations realize that it is a NECESSARY evil.
If you are actually interested in reading some of the facts behind the obstacles we are facing, here are a few good references.
http://www.airlinefinancials.com/uploads/American_and_US_Airways_ver_2.pdf
That is obviously some of the equation, but not the bulk of it. The most important question is, why did AA go bankrupt? When you look at EVERY SINGLE analysis of AA's woes, they all conclude that this company has a revenue problem. Without fixing that, this company is doomed to the ash heap of history.
This revenue problem was brought on quite simply by mismanagement of the company. We can all sit here and ping ff the idiotic moves that we have seen over the years to contribute to the spectacular collapse we have seen. Regardless of that and who is to blame, we are where we are. There is only one way to fix this revenue problem, and that is through growth.
Look at Horton's plan. Stand alone. What does that get us? How does that get us anywhere different than we have been for the past 10 years? Analysts that have seen the plan all slam it. I remember reading Holly Hegeman's take on the "plan" and she said something to the effect of "they think all they have to do is rape the employees, slash and burn, and the money will come rolling in." Sorry, but that's not the way it works. Raping the employees will only stop the bleeding for so long. As long as the underlying problem remains, you are doomed to repeat history.
To sum up everything written above, this merger is needed just to SURVIVE. Our union was not going to just blindly run into the arms of the person offering the biggest bag of money. What good is an industry leading contract do you if you company isn't going to survive another 5 years?
Do not think for one minute that the pilots or any other work group are giddy about this. This merger is akin to being dragged kicking and screaming to the alter. However, most that have studied the data and analysts presentations realize that it is a NECESSARY evil.
If you are actually interested in reading some of the facts behind the obstacles we are facing, here are a few good references.
http://www.airlinefinancials.com/uploads/American_and_US_Airways_ver_2.pdf
Super FLUF
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AA-US Airways: Our Best Alternative
Your APA leadership recently made the unanimous decision to sign a Conditional Labor Agreement (CLA) with US Airways management pledging to support its business plan for a merger of AMR and US Airways. The Association of Professional Flight Attendants and the Transport Workers Union also signed “agreements of support.” Each of the three agreements incorporates a term sheet with US Airways management that would become the basis for a new working agreement with that labor group should the merger be approved.
This decision by your APA leadership did not come without extensive discussions and
consideration of a merger’s potential benefit to individual pilot careers, as well as its potential to produce a more viable and profitable American Airlines for the long term.
After extensive review by our legal and financial advisers and subject-matter experts, your APA leadership is confident that a merger between American Airlines and US Airways would be the best possible course of action for both our profession and for the future of our airline.
There are three main reasons for this conclusion:
The APA leadership and its professional advisers strongly believe that the merger plan represents the best available alternative to a Section 1113 abrogation of our collective bargaining agreement.
Our advisers and industry analysts agree — American Airlines management’s standalone, post-bankruptcy business plan is wholly inadequate and will not fix the carrier’s revenue problem.
A combined American Airlines and US Airways will eliminate the size gap compared to Delta and United, and the combined operation will also immediately create a
comprehensive network that can compete with Delta and United. The combined carrier
would provide more feed to trans-Atlantic business, it would become the No. 1 carrier
(based on revenue share) on the East Coast and the Midwest, it would revitalize the
Chicago cornerstone, it would increase its network and competitive presence in the
western U.S. and it would strengthen the oneworld Alliance. The post-merger business
plan is also more likely to be successful in directly addressing American Airlines’ serious revenue disparity relative to the competition.
Management’s Business Plan: “Underwhelming”
For the past several years, we have all watched our once great airline decline to a level that has made it unrecognizable when compared to the innovative industry leader it once was. Over the years, the airline industry has changed, and AMR management failed to develop innovative strategies to improve the product and strengthen AA’s network. In many ways, American Airlines essentially stood still while the competition passed us by.
AMR management has pursued a strategy of “shrinking to profitability,” and is now focused on “outsourcing to profitability.” As a consequence, American Airlines is now a distant third in terms of domestic network and global reach when compared with Delta and United. Through increased marketplace presence, these two network-carrier competitors enjoy a revenue premium relative to American Airlines obtained by “poaching” high-yield business travelers with a superior product and network. This in turn has rendered the oneworld Alliance less competitive when compared with Sky Team and the Star Alliance. No amount of concessions by labor can
solve this revenue and network disparity. Trying to remedy those problems solely through the labor cost reductions and organic growth that AMR management has proposed would be difficult at best.
Our consultants have reached the same conclusion as many Wall Street analysts—
management’s business plan won’t fix American Airlines’ revenue and network problem. The business plan is essentially the same “Cornerstone” strategy that landed the airline in bankruptcy restructuring. It relies primarily on deep labor cuts to improve the bottom line, “doubling down” on American Eagle by buying hundreds of new small narrowbody jets, and outsourcing more American Airlines flying through unrestricted additional domestic codeshare partnerships. The plan neglects the serious revenue shortfall that American Airlines now suffers from relative to our network carrier competition.
Management’s stand-alone plan is premised on hopeful projections and assumptions, and does not account for volatile fuel prices and the ability of competitors with deep pockets and stronger networks to respond. Analysts universally agree that AA’s plans to grow in an uncertain economy in already saturated markets will erode the entire industry’s ability to rationally price its product, generate free cash flow and provide for a positive return on invested capital.
Your APA leadership recently made the unanimous decision to sign a Conditional Labor Agreement (CLA) with US Airways management pledging to support its business plan for a merger of AMR and US Airways. The Association of Professional Flight Attendants and the Transport Workers Union also signed “agreements of support.” Each of the three agreements incorporates a term sheet with US Airways management that would become the basis for a new working agreement with that labor group should the merger be approved.
This decision by your APA leadership did not come without extensive discussions and
consideration of a merger’s potential benefit to individual pilot careers, as well as its potential to produce a more viable and profitable American Airlines for the long term.
After extensive review by our legal and financial advisers and subject-matter experts, your APA leadership is confident that a merger between American Airlines and US Airways would be the best possible course of action for both our profession and for the future of our airline.
There are three main reasons for this conclusion:
The APA leadership and its professional advisers strongly believe that the merger plan represents the best available alternative to a Section 1113 abrogation of our collective bargaining agreement.
Our advisers and industry analysts agree — American Airlines management’s standalone, post-bankruptcy business plan is wholly inadequate and will not fix the carrier’s revenue problem.
A combined American Airlines and US Airways will eliminate the size gap compared to Delta and United, and the combined operation will also immediately create a
comprehensive network that can compete with Delta and United. The combined carrier
would provide more feed to trans-Atlantic business, it would become the No. 1 carrier
(based on revenue share) on the East Coast and the Midwest, it would revitalize the
Chicago cornerstone, it would increase its network and competitive presence in the
western U.S. and it would strengthen the oneworld Alliance. The post-merger business
plan is also more likely to be successful in directly addressing American Airlines’ serious revenue disparity relative to the competition.
Management’s Business Plan: “Underwhelming”
For the past several years, we have all watched our once great airline decline to a level that has made it unrecognizable when compared to the innovative industry leader it once was. Over the years, the airline industry has changed, and AMR management failed to develop innovative strategies to improve the product and strengthen AA’s network. In many ways, American Airlines essentially stood still while the competition passed us by.
AMR management has pursued a strategy of “shrinking to profitability,” and is now focused on “outsourcing to profitability.” As a consequence, American Airlines is now a distant third in terms of domestic network and global reach when compared with Delta and United. Through increased marketplace presence, these two network-carrier competitors enjoy a revenue premium relative to American Airlines obtained by “poaching” high-yield business travelers with a superior product and network. This in turn has rendered the oneworld Alliance less competitive when compared with Sky Team and the Star Alliance. No amount of concessions by labor can
solve this revenue and network disparity. Trying to remedy those problems solely through the labor cost reductions and organic growth that AMR management has proposed would be difficult at best.
Our consultants have reached the same conclusion as many Wall Street analysts—
management’s business plan won’t fix American Airlines’ revenue and network problem. The business plan is essentially the same “Cornerstone” strategy that landed the airline in bankruptcy restructuring. It relies primarily on deep labor cuts to improve the bottom line, “doubling down” on American Eagle by buying hundreds of new small narrowbody jets, and outsourcing more American Airlines flying through unrestricted additional domestic codeshare partnerships. The plan neglects the serious revenue shortfall that American Airlines now suffers from relative to our network carrier competition.
Management’s stand-alone plan is premised on hopeful projections and assumptions, and does not account for volatile fuel prices and the ability of competitors with deep pockets and stronger networks to respond. Analysts universally agree that AA’s plans to grow in an uncertain economy in already saturated markets will erode the entire industry’s ability to rationally price its product, generate free cash flow and provide for a positive return on invested capital.
Elect a bunch of weak dicks? Getting a little personal there aren't you? The fact is with the TWU the elected guys don't control negotiations, the ATD does.
Our plan for this airline? We fix planes, you fly them. Ok you guys got 14%, we have 4.8%, doesn't really make either of us airline managers. So maybe you feel that your 14% gives you more control, OK good for you, but I agree with my fellow mechanics that the USAIR merger will not be a great windfall for us, just as their merger with America West hasn't helped their front line workers achieve industry standard compensation and the TWA merger didn't add much to AA other than debt. The only bright spot is it may allow us to get out from under the worst deal in the industry, but what does USAIR have? The second worst deal, with a significant gap to the number 3 worst spot. Parker has yet to make deals with the workers he already has. How many years have they gone without a new deal? Do I support Horton and his stand alone plan? Hell No!! But the people who own the other 75% of the company are going to do what they want anyway, and all of them have no qualms about screwing over labor, even the Pilots. I see no point in pushing for this only to have it thrown in our faces later that we asked for it.
