Pilots Union Puts Arpey on Notice

[ILS2MINIMUMS]

http://www.apanegotiations.com/FictionvsFa...55/Default.aspx

 

[aafsc]

While AA pilots are not the highest paid pilots to fly an airplane, this is a very flawed presentation. They compare AA pilot pay to those at CO, UPS, FED EX, and Southwest. UPS and FED EX are in a different industry altogether; the small package cargo industry, which is very profitable. UPS made about $4 billion in net profit last year. One has to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges. While Southwest is a passenger carrier, their business model is radically different from AA's. They focus on high frequency and quick turns in large markets at mostly uncongested secondary airports while using a single aircraft type which saves enormous amounts of money in terms of training, parts inventory, and aircraft substitution. This savings is passed on to customers (lower fares),employees (higher wages) and investors (profits).AA flies to many congested airports (LGA, JFK, ORD to name a few) where quick turns are impossible. AA is an international airline which mandates larger aircraft which has to go through customs upon return to the United States. So while Southwest is indeed a passenger airline; they are a different type. Interesting that they included CO in their pay chart. They should have included a note at the bottom stating that CO filed bankruptcy twice thus making CO pilots by far the lowest paid from 1982 to the late 1990s. CO also froze it's "A" plan. This chart also fails to point out that CO pays all it's wide body captains the same. That CO 767 captain makes the same as a CO 777 captain ($189/hr) but what the APA chart doesn't say is that an AA 777 captain makes more than that CO 777 captain. The AA 777 captain makes ($202/hr) compared to the CO 777 captain at ($189/hr). But even more important is the fact that CO is the ONLY legacy that they listed in the pay chart.
Using data from airlinepilotpay.com we can expand the chart to include the other 4 legacies in addition to CO and AA.

AA 767 captain $177/hr 737 captain $166/hr
CO 767 captain $189/hr 737 captain $163/hr (CO pays all wide body captains the same)
UA 767 captain $154/hr 737 captain $133/hr
DL 767 captain $158/hr 737 captain $151/hr
US 767 captain $144/hr 737 captain $125/hr
NW A330 captain $154/hr A320 captain 137/hr (used similar sized NW aircraft)


When compared to their legacy peers; AA pilots are the highest paid.
As a point of interest, Southwest's topped out 737 captains make more than UA's topped out 747/777 captains.

As far as pensions (as shown on the APA chart), AA pilots are number 2 behind Alaska pilots in terms of the "A" plan; but AA pilots' "B" plan is 11% compared to Alaska pilots 3%.

As far as other pilot pension plans: (from airlinepilotpay.com)

UA defined benefit plan-terminated B-plan 9% C-plan 6%
DL defined benefit plan terminated B-plan 9% 2% 401k match
US defined benefit plan terminated B-plan 10%
NW defined benefit plan frozen B-plan 5% (tentative)

AA pilots are doing much better than their peers in terms of pensions.

While there are many areas of a contract, I chose these two areas to do an "apples to apples" comparison.

 

[Bob Owens]

Which major carrier paid less than TWA? UAL? USAIR? Delta? Not AA.

The fact is that all workers at the majors have seen their real compensation decrease and most have done so while their leaders were more concerned about looking dignified than fighting. Twenty years of "we'll get em next time" just doesnt cut it anymore. L1011 you were fortunate in that you made enough during the better times and now can sit back in a retirement that those who came after you will likely never know., especially if we dont start fighting.


AAFSC, I dont buy that crap about "UPS and FED EX are in a different industry altogether; the small package cargo industry, which is very profitable". If its so profitable then maybe AA should rip out all the seats and fill the cabin with small packages.

We sell time to the company. If I change a generator on a cargo plane should I expect more than I would on a passenger plane? No. This is not an apples and orange comparasion, the generators are interchangable between passenger and cargo planes. The effort is the same and so is the liability. You have allowed the company and the TWU to convince that the two oranges before are an orange and an apple, they arent. If you drive up and load a cargo plane with a cochran loader should you be paid more than if you loaded a passenger plane?Do you think that Exxon or Shell say "we will set the price of fuel based on your relative profitability?

Dont allow the company and its lapdog TWU to lower your expectations. We should go for UPS rates or more but under no circumstances should we deviate from staying with the position of "No less than Southwest"

 

[aafsc]

Which major carrier paid less than TWA? UAL? USAIR? Delta? Not AA.

The fact is that all workers at the majors have seen their real compensation decrease and most have done so while their leaders were more concerned about looking dignified than fighting. Twenty years of "we'll get em next time" just doesnt cut it anymore. L1011 you were fortunate in that you made enough during the better times and now can sit back in a retirement that those who came after you will likely never know., especially if we dont start fighting.
AAFSC, I dont buy that crap about "UPS and FED EX are in a different industry altogether; the small package cargo industry, which is very profitable". If its so profitable then maybe AA should rip out all the seats and fill the cabin with small packages.

We sell time to the company. If I change a generator on a cargo plane should I expect more than I would on a passenger plane? No. This is not an apples and orange comparasion, the generators are interchangable between passenger and cargo planes. The effort is the same and so is the liability. You have allowed the company and the TWU to convince that the two oranges before are an orange and an apple, they arent. If you drive up and load a cargo plane with a cochran loader should you be paid more than if you loaded a passenger plane?Do you think that Exxon or Shell say "we will set the price of fuel based on your relative profitability?

Dont allow the company and its lapdog TWU to lower your expectations. We should go for UPS rates or more but under no circumstances should we deviate from staying with the position of "No less than Southwest"

Bob, UPS and FEDEX ARE in a different industry because UPS has more than double the revenue of AA and has significantly fewer planes and mechanics. Also, they do not derive all their revenue from their air service; a large amount is derived from rail and truck. You posed the question: "If I change a generator on a cargo plane should I expect more than I would on a passenger plane?" You answered no. Ironically, I feel you should be paid MORE. Why? You yourself cited the liability. If a cargo plane crashed due to mechanical error it is more than likely that the two pilots would die. If a passenger plane crashed due to mechanical error the crew and a couple hundred passengers would likely die. Having said that, the economics and your AMT brothers at the other airlines are "holding you back". Economically, in the small package business, there are only three companies (UPS, FEDEX, and DHL) that split the very lucrative package market. You suggested that AA should rip out the seats and haul packages; I agree, cargo is much more lucrative than passengers. If AA could get just 25% of UPS's business there is $1 billion in net profits a year right there. Of course AA would also have to get into trucking and rail. On the passenger side, you have about 11 legacy and national carriers competing in a saturated mature market. As for your AMT brothers, AA looks across that JFK (and LGA) ramp in that high cost city of New York and they see that those DL mechanics (like Mr. Schalk's brother) continue to show up for work for less than what you make and with a frozen pension. The same can be said at ORD, LAX, and SFO with UA and their AMFA represented AMTs. Your AMFA lowered the bar even further when they agreed to sign what was imposed on them at NW. They would have been better served to keep the "strike" going forever because at least it would have given them a favorable image to the AMTs they were trying to organize at the other airlines. In my opinion, you might be able to extract something between UPS and Southwest rates if you can get AA to sell heavy overhaul and have only 1000 AMTs at the largest cities and hubs and hope they don't pull a "NW" on you. At one time, I heard that Carty offered the AMTs a Southwest style contract but that it would require massive layoffs. At EA we were paid below AA, UA, DL, etc. but more than CO. The same way you say "no less than Southwest" we said "no less than AA or UA". The unions at the other airlines did not support the EA strike and all was lost. Our assets went to other airlines whose employees benefited immensely and we had to start all over again at the bottom of the pay scale and seniority lists of those airlines.

 

[ILS2MINIMUMS]

American Airlines hauls more freight than DHL. We are the #3 freight hauler on the planet, behind FedEx and UPS. The comparison is apples to apples.

 

[aafsc]

American Airlines hauls more freight than DHL. We are the #3 freight hauler on the planet, behind FedEx and UPS. The comparison is apples to apples.

Do you have a source? I find it hard to believe that we can out haul a cargo company that has their own planes. Also, NW has 14-16 747 freighters; I would think that they would haul more than AA. Besides, UPS and FED EX ship almost exclusively small packages; whereas AA ships mostly the larger heavier type freight.

 

[ILS2MINIMUMS]

NW has 14-16 747 freighters; I would think that they would haul more than AA. Besides, UPS and FED EX ship almost exclusively small packages; whereas AA ships mostly the larger heavier type freight.

You are correct. I mis-read the data.

 

[eolesen]

One of the other reasons I'd hesitate before drawing a comparison between UPS and FDX with passenger carriers is utilization and scheduling.

If AA has a late flight into DFW, they usually have multiple reroute options available to minimize the imact. That's not the case with cargo.

A single aircraft missing the main sort complex at either OAK, IND, AFW, or MEM has a huge impact, in some cases including financial penalties for being late.

Dependability in all forms is a far different mindset than you see with the passenger operators. So, they do pay more, presumably to keep experienced people around. Their poor aircraft utilization have another impact -- they don't need mechanics on duty around the clock, and having fewer people in a classification drives up the salaries.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

While AA pilots are not the highest paid pilots to fly an airplane, this is a very flawed presentation. They compare AA pilot pay to those at CO, UPS, FED EX, and Southwest. UPS and FED EX .........................................etc, etc.....................................

While there are many areas of a contract, I chose these two areas to do an "apples to apples" comparison.

.



My compliments on a well-reasoned and well-written post.

.

 

[Maark767]

Your point? I made around fifty. I flew low time. Family is/was far more important than racking up the bucks. A smaller home, an older car, gave me the ability to parent 11 children over the years. You are the one that threw out the "double" comment. I was just remarking that there had been a huge mistake in my paycheck. I learned very quickly that dollar per hour did not an industry leading contract make. Especially after the illegal RPA when the pay was comparable to TWAs but without the offsetting work rules that allowed me the flexibility to have an extraordinary family life. I have always been able to provide for my family and while there have been sacrifices along the way (I fed my kids instead of my 401K) I wouldn't trade very much at this stage in my life. I hope you'll be able to look back on your life and career with the same peace.

I agree with you 1000 % about family... First and always foremost .. Always.....
And as far as work rules and hourly rates , lets just say a few Rentals later and a nice 6 figure 401k and I've got 25 yrs to retirement !!! So there is some industry leading going on ...

 

[nbmcg01]

I agree with you 1000 % about family... First and always foremost .. Always.....
And as far as work rules and hourly rates , lets just say a few Rentals later and a nice 6 figure 401k and I've got 25 yrs to retirement !!! So there is some industry leading going on ...

Part of the "misunderstanding" that is always present when there is no education was the "fear" that the former TWA f/as were going to "take" all of the AA f/as defined benefit dollars. I CHOSE to retire with only 1 year of AA defined benefit. I also have pension from TWA and my 401K, plus real estate. Had I not been furloughed I would have EARNED more defined benefit. Also, I would have been recalled by now and back earning additional defined benefit. Had I not chosen to parent 11 children I also would have had a more "generous" retirement. That being said, I'm earning a totally new retirement, have weekends and holidays off, good vacation, no hassle with sick time, home EVERY night, (unless I'm attending a delivery (yes I'm a doula too, lol), and my biggest fight is with a Republican Gov. and State Legislature. Oh and I forgot that $45 a month that the IAM defined benefit gave us...now that is clout..lol You have a very nice retirement, no question. What are you willing to give up to keep it? I would probably agree to all future new hires being in an age weighted 401K plan vs the defined benefit. It will be interesting to see the openers. I do wish the very best for you all.

 

[L1011Ret]

Which major carrier paid less than TWA? UAL? USAIR? Delta? Not AA.

The fact is that all workers at the majors have seen their real compensation decrease and most have done so while their leaders were more concerned about looking dignified than fighting. Twenty years of "we'll get em next time" just doesnt cut it anymore. L1011 you were fortunate in that you made enough during the better times and now can sit back in a retirement that those who came after you will likely never know., especially if we dont start fighting.
AAFSC, I dont buy that crap about "UPS and FED EX are in a different industry altogether; the small package cargo industry, which is very profitable". If its so profitable then maybe AA should rip out all the seats and fill the cabin with small packages.

We sell time to the company. If I change a generator on a cargo plane should I expect more than I would on a passenger plane? No. This is not an apples and orange comparasion, the generators are interchangable between passenger and cargo planes. The effort is the same and so is the liability. You have allowed the company and the TWU to convince that the two oranges before are an orange and an apple, they arent. If you drive up and load a cargo plane with a cochran loader should you be paid more than if you loaded a passenger plane?Do you think that Exxon or Shell say "we will set the price of fuel based on your relative profitability?

Dont allow the company and its lapdog TWU to lower your expectations. We should go for UPS rates or more but under no circumstances should we deviate from staying with the position of "No less than Southwest"

You I did not save enough to retire in comfort. Still working ar 68.

 

[Maark767]

Part of the "misunderstanding" that is always present when there is no education was the "fear" that the former TWA f/as were going to "take" all of the AA f/as defined benefit dollars. I CHOSE to retire with only 1 year of AA defined benefit. I also have pension from TWA and my 401K, plus real estate. Had I not been furloughed I would have EARNED more defined benefit. Also, I would have been recalled by now and back earning additional defined benefit. Had I not chosen to parent 11 children I also would have had a more "generous" retirement. That being said, I'm earning a totally new retirement, have weekends and holidays off, good vacation, no hassle with sick time, home EVERY night, (unless I'm attending a delivery (yes I'm a doula too, lol), and my biggest fight is with a Republican Gov. and State Legislature. Oh and I forgot that $45 a month that the IAM defined benefit gave us...now that is clout..lol You have a very nice retirement, no question. What are you willing to give up to keep it? I would probably agree to all future new hires being in an age weighted 401K plan vs the defined benefit. It will be interesting to see the openers. I do wish the very best for you all.

Thank you.... and the best to you !! Yes cant wait to see what will be in the openers as well... I'm sure the pension for new hires will be addressed. A 401k match seems to be happening in all sectors these days not just the airlines. A side note here... Flying with the TWA folks is wonderful, so professional , polite, interesting. Cant say enough !!!

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Dont allow the company and its lapdog TWU to lower your expectations. We should go for UPS rates or more but under no circumstances should we deviate from staying with the position of "No less than Southwest"
[/quote]


You are a passenger airline not a cargo airline, like previously stated - this plan will not work... It is SERIOUSLY flawed... SERIOUSLY... You are comparable to NWA UAL US DAL CAL NOT UPS - FED EX...

 

[FA Mikey]

So I will do you AA Elitists a favor and quit busting your happy chops and leave you alone to your board,

You are a passenger airline not a cargo airline, like previously stated - this plan will not work... It is SERIOUSLY flawed... SERIOUSLY... You are comparable to NWA UAL US DAL CAL NOT UPS - FED EX...

Really they don't have airline employees and associated pay rates?