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SWA levels:
supv, manager, vice president, ceo. 4 layers.

That's a load of crap. Directly from WN's annual report:

1. Vice Chairman and Chief Executive Office
1*. -> President and Corporate Secretary
2. ---> Executive Vice President Aircraft Operations
3. -----> Vice President Maintenance and Engineering

4. Manager
5. Supervisor

Looking at WN's careers section, they have several postings for senior managers and directors, so I'd be surprised if there isn't another layer (i.e. regional manager or director) sitting between the manager at each location and the VP-ME.

I'm giving y'all the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that an EVP reports directly to Gary and not Colleen. If that's not the case, and if there is indeed a director or senior/regional manager in between the VP and location manager(s), then WN has just as many layers of management as AA.

WN also have 30 VP/SVP/EVP/PRES/CEO positions, despite having about half as many aircraft and at least half as many employees. AA has 40 (excluding those at Eagle and with subsidiaries like Beacon). Some of those could clearly be eliminated, but I don't know that it would ever be fewer than 35.
 
Don't get defensive conected1!

look at the "level system" of AA:

supv, general foreman, manager, director, vice president, sr vice president, ceo. 7 Layers!
SWA levels:
supv, manager, vice president, ceo. 4 layers.
Not being defensive...just thought you might be in possesion of some real substance. False alarm.
 
Confirmed with two different people at SWA, and the claims of four layers of management are indeed bovine feces.

There are at least six levels of management;

1 CEO
2 EVP/SVP
3 VP
4 Director/Sr. Director
5 Manager
6 Supervisor/Sr. Analyst
7 Union Worker/Analyst

It does appear that Colleen Barrett is indeed a title without portfolio, so I will correct my statement from yesterday: WN has one less layer of management than AA but is still quite deep compared to the bucket of prop wash being expressed by someone at JFK.

1 CEO
2 EVP/SVP
3 VP
4 Managing Director (L8)
5 Director/Senior Manager (L6)
6 Manager (L5)
6 Tech CSM/Sr. Analyst (L4)
7 CSM/Analyst (L3)
8 Union Worker/Agent/Clerical/Junior Analyst

Put the two side by side, and all you will see is some titles which are different.

You can also take out the 7th level at AA when you're dealing with aircraft, automotive or facilities, since the CSM's in those groups are typically L4's, and you don't have many situations where L3's report to a L4. With that in mind, there may indeed be just as many layers at both WN and AA, but I can't confirm that yet.

What's even more ironic here is that Jetblue now has a similar 7 layer structure comparable to WN's, and now has about 30 officers at the VP level or higher.
 
Ok,,,say this is all factual!

Still too much management!

worker---->supv----->shift manager(GF)----->manager------->
area director------>vice president-------->sr. vice president------->CEO.

1)Eliminate the shift manager. Since there are a good numbers of supervisors, one of them could act as a GF everyday
2)Eliminate the area director. The manager can report directly to the vice president of the department.

Two levels eliminated.


But no, AA only seeks to reduce the workers' ranks and in some cases, outsource. I still have yet to see shared sacrifice.
 
Our meeting for A/C Maint here at DFW was very entertaining. We had our maint. manager and a couple of other managment types, we had big Don, Kieth and some other local union guys and the very attractive young lady from that Boston consulting group....there were about 15 of us and we let them all know how bad the moral is and how little trust we have in both management and our union. The meeting lasted almost 5 hrs and niether the union or local managment heard a word we said. They just tried to get through thier rehearsed speeches and didn't seem very interested in what our concerns are or any ideas we might have. We got doughnuts though.
<_< Hey! That's better than what we got ! We only got bottled water!!!! :angry: 😛
 
<_<--- Another case of aa wasting it's money on consultants that have no clue on what's going on in our industry, yet alone at aa!!! How much did they spend to come up with these clowns? "Let's all have a group hug now, and everything will be O.K.!!" 😉
 
But no, AA only seeks to reduce the workers' ranks and in some cases, outsource. I still have yet to see shared sacrifice.

Actually to be fair, you can not judge how many management positions there are company-wide just because you have 3 people breathing down your neck every minute of the day. :lol:

In Flight Service, they eliminated one whole category of managers (attendance manager)--not just some of the positions. They have centralized a lot of functions that used to have at least one body dedicated to each of them in every base.

In addition, I have several friends here in Dallas that were in middle management at HDQ. They are no longer associated with AMR in any way. Their jobs were eliminated. I have another friend who is still there, but he's working his behind off because two people around him were RIF'd and not replaced. The company simply assigned their duties to my friend, and he had more than a full-time job to start.
 
<_< The company seems to have some sort of freeze on recalls also. Even though we have more work than we can handle now,they have told us there is no way they'll add head count! In fact that was part of this PLI thing. They actually came to us to ask us how to make it work with the people we now have. But when we surprised them and came up with a plan to do it. They weren't interested!!Now the du-du is about to hit the fan. Our inspectors found both pylon mid spar fittings cracked on one of the 767 Air Canada aircraft! Air Canada asked Boeing if they could fly it out of here, and we're told the plane under no circumstance was to fly until it's fixed! So it looks like we'll be doing the pylon Mods on this aircraft in addition to the "C" checks, and about the same time the Saabs are to show up! At one of their meeting, I asked if aa was welling to spend ten dollars to make a hundred, and my answer, in so many words was no! Bottom line. PLI= another case of smoke and mirrors!!! :down:
 
OK FM since you have all the info and you are saying that WN has about the same amount of management levels as we do. This is a way of looking at it,but what is the ratio of management to worker? What is the pay levels for management? Oh and lets not forget about the over staffing at headquarters a few years ago. How many buildings did they shut down? If that was not over staffing in management I don't know what is. I would be willing to bet that WN did not have this amount of excessive management during the good times. Sounds like alot of to me. AA has not changed their way of doing business,they have just put a little(no pun intended)different spin on it by using these accronyms.
 
I don't have the ratio of managers to employees, but it's pretty easy to calculate the number of VP's per employee:

WN in 2004: 31,000 employees, 31 executives, or 1:1000

AA in 2005: 75,000 employees, 41 executives, or 1:1830



Real estate... now that's near and dear to me.

In 1993, AA had CP5, CP4, CP2, and CP1. Sabre occupied over half of CP4, a third of CP2, and all of CP1.

When Sabre was spun off in 1997, CP1 and CP4 went with Sabre. That left AA in CP5, 70% of CP2, and 20% of CP4 (which was being subleased from Sabre).

Around 2001, AA re-purchased CP4, and kicked Sabre and EDS out. As Sabre and EDS moved out, people from CP2 started moving in. Once the Credit Union building opened, CP2 was vacated entirely, and sold.


Something else you have to remember is that technology and outsourcing have had a huge impact at HDQ, so it's really not fair to say management was simply overstaffed five or ten years ago versus today.

As more and more automation gets put in place, fewer people have been needed to manage processes which used to require a lot of manpower, including areas like accounting, budgets, finance, and even HR.

For example, where AA used to have a hundred or so people to manage benefits, there are only a couple dozen left, simply by moving a lot of that process to Jetnet and forcing everyone to do it online. Other jobs were simply moved to United Healthcare and Metlife, who were more than willing to take on work previously done by L1/L2/L3 people on AA's payroll.

In purchasing, AA has gone to single source providers for auto parts, office supplies, catering, cabin service and in most other areas. That eliminated dozens of jobs in purchasing, since it was no longer necessary to constantly search for the cheapest supplier of toilet paper or steno pads.

Ooops. Thanks to voicemail and email, steno pads aren't used much anymore, since there are barely any secretaries left. That alone emptied out about 80 to 100 cubes.

Those are just a few examples of why it was possible to consolidate into fewer buildings, and it's pretty typical of what's happening with white collar America. As technology increases, fewer people are needed at all levels.

As for WN? They doubled the size of their headquarters complex over the past ten years. One of the reasons that they've been courted by places like PHX is because they've outgrown what they could build adjacent to DAL, and there's simply not a lot of room left to expand again. They also need to vacate the remaining space in the North Concourse, if they haven't already done so, since it's more and more obvious that the City will need those gates for other carriers at some point in the near future...
 
<_< What's this I hear about the Platting shop in TUL? Is is true that they put ads in the local paper, at their own expence, for work ,and came up with some offers? :shock:
 
We had the PLI meetings here in MIA.
You were supposed to attend either before or after shift.
That didnt work out very well so they held them during shift and encouraged you to go.
I personnally did not attend. Not interested in hearing the same BS about how the employees have to give more. There were some union reps involved in the presentation promoting the PLI and what the company was trying to put forward to all of us. I have heard the speech before. I'm not interested in hearing it again. Just my opinion.
The meetings are mandatory on-shift to attend. They are optional off-shift, if you so choose to stay.
 
The meetings are mandatory on-shift to attend. They are optional off-shift, if you so choose to stay.



That might be a set-up. If they hold the PLI on shift and see all the mechanics sitting around for an 1-2 hours for the presentation, management can then conclude that all those mechanics may not be needed, which incidentally is a PLI issue of mechanics per aircraft.
 
The meetings are mandatory on-shift to attend. They are optional off-shift, if you so choose to stay.
BS, they cant force some to attend and give others the option not to.

The meetings are optional, could you imagine the lawsuits where a company is forcing workers to in effect attend a quasi union meeting? Don Videtich a TWU International Rep, is one of the hosts. Blatent company unionism.
 

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