Poll: Keep or drop ALPA?

[smoot4208]

As you know if we drop ALPA and create our own union with US East Alpa pilots, we can prevent the seniority list from being implimented.

 

[AWA320]

As you know if we drop ALPA and create our own union with US East Alpa pilots, we can prevent the seniority list from being implimented.

That is completely false and you are or have been given so really bad information. To do as you suggest would mean that anytime a company didn't like a decision they could just rewrite the contract to suit them. Now that's not to say they don't do this anyway but I think you get the point.

Your top 500 or so would never vote to get rid of ALPA and no one on the west would ever support this action. So in theory you would have half a group supporting some new union while the other half would do absoluty noting to aid in it's survival.

 

[smoot4208]

That is completely false and you are or have been given so really bad information. To do as you suggest would mean that anytime a company didn't like a decision they could just rewrite the contract to suit them. Now that's not to say they don't do this anyway but I think you get the point.

Your top 500 or so would never vote to get rid of ALPA and no one on the west would ever support this action. So in theory you would have half a group supporting some new union while the other half would do absoluty noting to aid in it's survival.

Did you read all of the Letters to ALPA MEC Chairman Jack Stephan. I didn't make this up. WE do however need a percentage to agree. I would think you would like this because if the west drops out of ALPA, the company would be forced to make new contracts, a plus for all employees. Just read the article, and you will see where I am coming from.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Your top 500 or so would never vote to get rid of ALPA and no one on the west would ever support this action.

Wanna bet? I think you're underestimating a lot of things. I guess we'll all see soon enough.

Later,
Eye

 

[prechilill]

As you know if we drop ALPA and create our own union with US East Alpa pilots, we can prevent the seniority list from being implimented.

The Air Wisconsin pilots had the same wish at one time... and a wish it remained. What I remember, though, is the bitterness felt fifteen years following their merger with MVA.
Here is some advice, put this seniority decision in the grave and move on before it puts you in the grave.

 

[luvthe9]

Wanna bet? I think you're underestimating a lot of things. I guess we'll all see soon enough.

Later,
Eye

I'm in the top 400 believe me after our pension was given away we want OUT!!!!!

 

[CaptBud330]

All you need is 50% + 1 to get a vote to dump ALPO.
Actually dumping ALPO would save money. Only 30 cents of every dues dollar comes back to the US Airways pilots for services rendered. The rest is used for the ALPO condo, the Presidents car and driver, saleries, etc. You could reduce your dues by at least 75% with an in-house union called US Airways Pilots EAST.

 

[phasersonstun2]

That is completely false and you are or have been given so really bad information. To do as you suggest would mean that anytime a company didn't like a decision they could just rewrite the contract to suit them. Now that's not to say they don't do this anyway but I think you get the point.

Your top 500 or so would never vote to get rid of ALPA and no one on the west would ever support this action. So in theory you would have half a group supporting some new union while the other half would do absoluty noting to aid in it's survival.

FYI, out of the top 500, I would say 90% are smoking p.oed that their bretheren F/O's were slotted into permanent F/O positions. The F/O's are the ARMY Rangers of east U.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Your top 500 or so would never vote to get rid of ALPA

Not so fast. Not all, but most would vote to leave. You have not factored in events of late unrelated to the merger.

Greeter.

 

[Rico]

No,

They are right, most pilots would never vote to rid themselves of ALPA, and risk losing their subscription to that great magazine they provide.

Except that ALPA charges a lot more in dues than other unions do, and the "top 500" might like to keep more of their salary instead of funding ALPA's mistakes.

God knows we sure wouldn't want to miss out on any other neat changes to ALPA National policy shoved down the BOD's throat by UAL, minor things like changes to the Merger Policy from DOH to the useless fluff it is now...

Seems to me that this leaving idea worked out pretty good for the Air Canada pilots, as they left their regional carrier's merger plan behind and struck out on their own rather than take a hit to their senority or be forced to share growth...

 

[USA320Pilot]

I have thought a lot about the seniority integration award where at the time of the merger 19-year US Airways First Officers are now junior to 3-month AWA First Officers and about 1,500 furloughees, with as much as 15 years of tenure, have been stapled to the bottom of the seniority list. I believe there is no right mind that thinks this is reasonable.

As more information comes out of the East MEC the pre-merger US Airways pilots have an even stronger position than I first thought. In today’s PIT LEC Update, John Brookman and Rocco Spartano said, “The MEC has charged the Merger Committee with compiling a presentation to be given to Capt. Prater and the Executive Council within the next two weeks. We saw an overview of the highlights on Monday. The committee will not retry the arbitration case with the Executive Council; they will present evidence of the inequities of the award and the detriments to the careers of the US Airways pilots. It is our opinion that the award violates the principals of ALPA merger policy. The MEC believes that the Executive Council has the authority to intervene in this situation.â€

After receiving economic new contract information from the company’s proposal today, the MEC is preparing an even stronger argument to present at the Executive Council meeting because apparently ALPA International’s “Executive Council has the authority to intervene in this (seniority award) situation.â€

In response AWA MEC Vice Chairman Mitch Vasin (with his 3 years of service, which has him senior to 20-year US Airways pilots) wrote in a letter to ALPA President John Prater, “Rather, it is to state, in the strongest possible terms, the AWA MEC’s opposition to that request (for the US Airways MEC make a presentation to ALPA’s Executive Board).â€

Inquiring minds want to know if the AWA pilots were so sure the Arbitrators Opinion & Award was binding then why oppose the US Airways MEC’s request to ALPA International?

Meanwhile, I understand there is another development which could delay the implementation of the Nicolau award for years and years and that is a class action lawsuit. I do not want to comment on this option too much, but it is real and with precedence.

Furthermore, a very well organized group of US Airways pilots have started the process of decertifying ALPA at US Airways, which could lead to the forced and imposed decertification of AWA ALPA.

Nonetheless, the overwhelming majority of US Airways pilots believe if the MEC did nothing the pilot group would be better off. Why? The pilot contract and LOA 93 are not amendable until 2010, the Transition Agreement and EMB-190 Arbitration Award provides East pilots significant benefits, and if the East pilots enter into Section VI negotiations in 2010, it would likely take another 4 years or to 2014 to obtain an agreement. In the meantime the Nicolau Award could not be implemented for 8 or 9 years.

Obviously, the key here is US Airways and AWA pilot attrition. Why? Over 2,500 US Airways pilots and only 500 AWA pilots retire in the next 10 years. If the US Airways pilots do not agree to a combined contract then the US Airways pilots would receive meaningful pay raises as reserves become lineholders, narrowbody pilots become widebody pilots, and First Officers become Captains because the Nicolau Award could not be implemented and there would be nothing the AWA MEC could do to stop this.

Thus, what type of merger pay raises would the AWA pilots receive? None in the near future. Why? Their contract is amendable and the union and company would be required to enter Section VI negotiations. How long did it take the AWA pilots to get a new deal after their last contract was amendable? 4 years!

In the meantime this idea would enable the US Airways pilot’s seniority to improve month after month, while the AWA pilot’s seniority would remain fairly stagnant with no aircraft growth and very little seniority improvement. For example, in July US Airways recalled 130 pilots and for the first six months of this year had 386 recalls. How many AWA pilots were added to the seniority list since the merger? None.

Also noteworthy, the Nicolau award stapled these 386 pilots to the bottom of the seniority list. How do you think these aviators feel and how would they vote on a new contract or ALPA decertification?

Another point that I believe is interesting is that the Transition Agreement minimum fleet count is 80% of each airlines’ pre-merger fleet.

Therefore, with no agreement the US Airways East pilots would have a lower cost contract. Thus, when it comes time to replace aircraft where would it make sense for the company to do this? On the West side where the pilot costs are higher or on the East side where costs are lower? Could one pilot group see a reduction of flying and aircraft because there was no new joint contract and the Transition Agreement would remain in force?

I find it interesting how whip sawing could now become a good thing for the East pilots and can further hurt the West pilots.

With all of this said, do I want to see this pilot war proceed? No, of course not. But, even though my relative seniority improved by the award and I have widebody protections in my favor, I will fight any attempt to implement the Nicolau Award because it is unfair and an AWA pilot windfall. Thus, there needs to be a negotiated solution for the company to move forward.

In my opinion, the solution should be:

Permanent East and West Coast fences where pre-merger US Airways and AWA pilots can only bid their pre-merger bases. This would preserve each pilot groups career expectations.

An equal division of potential A340 flying and any widebody paying aircraft added to the fleet over 63 aircraft, with the America West pilots entitled 13 aircraft and the US Airways pilots 50 aircraft, which were the pre-merger A330, B767, and B757 fleets.

Equal division of EMB-190 flying.

New joint contract scope protections with equal sharing of any future furloughs, East and West minimum fleet counts and block hours.

In conclusion, I believe without some sort of an agreement negotiated like the one discussed above the two pilot groups will go to war and the company will continue its industry worst operating performance.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

P.S. If the AWA pilot Section VI negotiations ever went to a 30-day cooling off period and a strike, how many US Airways East pilots would cross the AWA picket line?

 

[flybynite]

I have thought a lot about the seniority integration award where at the time of the merger 19-year US Airways First Officers are now junior to 3-month AWA First Officers and about 1,500 furloughees, with as much as 15 years of tenure, have been stapled to the bottom of the seniority list. I believe there is no right mind that thinks this is reasonable.

As more information comes out of the East MEC the pre-merger US Airways pilots have an even stronger position than I first thought. In today’s PIT LEC Update, John Brookman and Rocco Spartano said, “The MEC has charged the Merger Committee with compiling a presentation to be given to Capt. Prater and the Executive Council within the next two weeks. We saw an overview of the highlights on Monday. The committee will not retry the arbitration case with the Executive Council; they will present evidence of the inequities of the award and the detriments to the careers of the US Airways pilots. It is our opinion that the award violates the principals of ALPA merger policy. The MEC believes that the Executive Council has the authority to intervene in this situation.â€

After receiving economic new contract information from the company’s proposal today, the MEC is preparing an even stronger argument to present at the Executive Council meeting because apparently ALPA International’s “Executive Council has the authority to intervene in this (seniority award) situation.â€

In response AWA MEC Vice Chairman Mitch Vasin (with his 3 years of service, which has him senior to 20-year US Airways pilots) wrote in a letter to ALPA President John Prater, “Rather, it is to state, in the strongest possible terms, the AWA MEC’s opposition to that request (for the US Airways MEC make a presentation to ALPA’s Executive Board).â€

Inquiring minds want to know if the AWA pilots were so sure the Arbitrators Opinion & Award was binding then why oppose the US Airways MEC’s request to ALPA International?

Meanwhile, I understand there is another development which could delay the implementation of the Nicolau award for years and years and that is a class action lawsuit. I do not want to comment on this option too much, but it is real and with precedence.

Furthermore, a very well organized group of US Airways pilots have started the process of decertifying ALPA at US Airways, which could lead to the forced and imposed decertification of AWA ALPA.

Nonetheless, the overwhelming majority of US Airways pilots believe if the MEC did nothing the pilot group would be better off. Why? The pilot contract and LOA 93 are not amendable until 2010, the Transition Agreement and EMB-190 Arbitration Award provides East pilots significant benefits, and if the East pilots enter into Section VI negotiations in 2010, it would likely take another 4 years or to 2014 to obtain an agreement. In the meantime the Nicolau Award could not be implemented for 8 or 9 years.

Obviously, the key here is US Airways and AWA pilot attrition. Why? Over 2,500 US Airways pilots and only 500 AWA pilots retire in the next 10 years. If the US Airways pilots do not agree to a combined contract then the US Airways pilots would receive meaningful pay raises as reserves become lineholders, narrowbody pilots become widebody pilots, and First Officers become Captains because the Nicolau Award could not be implemented and there would be nothing the AWA MEC could do to stop this.

Thus, what type of merger pay raises would the AWA pilots receive? None in the near future. Why? Their contract is amendable and the union and company would be required to enter Section VI negotiations. How long did it take the AWA pilots to get a new deal after their last contract was amendable? 4 years!

In the meantime this idea would enable the US Airways pilot’s seniority to improve month after month, while the AWA pilot’s seniority would remain fairly stagnant with no aircraft growth and very little seniority improvement. For example, in July US Airways recalled 130 pilots and for the first six months of this year had 386 recalls. How many AWA pilots were added to the seniority list since the merger? None.

Also noteworthy, the Nicolau award stapled these 386 pilots to the bottom of the seniority list. How do you think these aviators feel and how would they vote on a new contract or ALPA decertification?

Another point that I believe is interesting is that the Transition Agreement minimum fleet count is 80% of each airlines’ pre-merger fleet.

Therefore, with no agreement the US Airways East pilots would have a lower cost contract. Thus, when it comes time to replace aircraft where would it make sense for the company to do this? On the West side where the pilot costs are higher or on the East side where costs are lower? Could one pilot group see a reduction of flying and aircraft because there was no new joint contract and the Transition Agreement would remain in force?

I find it interesting how whip sawing could now become a good thing for the East pilots and can further hurt the West pilots.

With all of this said, do I want to see this pilot war proceed? No, of course not. But, even though my relative seniority improved by the award and I have widebody protections in my favor, I will fight any attempt to implement the Nicolau Award because it is unfair and an AWA pilot windfall. Thus, there needs to be a negotiated solution for the company to move forward.

In my opinion, the solution should be:

Permanent East and West Coast fences where pre-merger US Airways and AWA pilots can only bid their pre-merger bases. This would preserve each pilot groups career expectations.

An equal division of potential A340 flying and any widebody paying aircraft added to the fleet over 63 aircraft, with the America West pilots entitled 13 aircraft and the US Airways pilots 50 aircraft, which were the pre-merger A330, B767, and B757 fleets.

Equal division of EMB-190 flying.

New joint contract scope protections with equal sharing of any future furloughs, East and West minimum fleet counts and block hours.

In conclusion, I believe without some sort of an agreement negotiated like the one discussed above the two pilot groups will go to war and the company will continue its industry worst operating performance.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

P.S. If the AWA pilot Section VI negotiations ever went to a 30-day cooling off period and a strike, how many US Airways East pilots would cross the AWA picket line?

How many times has Doug Parker said he wanted to operate the airlines as separate entities?

 

[Bear96]

Meanwhile, I understand there is another development which could delay the implementation of the Nicolau award for years and years and that is a class action lawsuit. I do not want to comment on this option too much, but it is real and with precedence.

Good luck with that. When parties agree to arbitrate, they essentially give up the right to dispute the decision on its substantive grounds through an appeals process. It is exceedingly difficult to get a court to step in and upset an arbitrator's decision, especially when the reason is basically one party saying, "We don't like the outcome." Unless you can show some sort of fraud or impartiality on the part of the arbitrator, no court will touch it.

But good luck to you. If you want to shovel money into the pockets of a few labor lawyers, I am sure they will be glad to take it.

 

[Fly]

The wording said "NO WINDFALLS". Considering that this was one, without a doubt, a judge will have to look at it.

 

[Rico]

IMO the likelyhood of the East pilots offloading ALPA issmall, but real, based upon the actions or inactions of the AAA ALPA and ALAP National

If the pilots feel they have no better choice, then they will jump from the ALPA ship in a heartbeat.

More likely is what ALPA is good at, doing "nothing".

But in this case, nothing means no changes to the status quo, nothing means no merger of the lists, and nothing means years of East upgrades, years of East growth (gee, who has the cheaper contract and international authority), years of attrition that our pilots can take advantage of...

Basically ther already exists a huge "fence" between our pilot groups, that we can shore up instead of trying to tear down. It's not like the company will be in any hurry to negate the obvious cost advantages, nor will they hesitate to shift current and future flying to the cheaper East.

Kinda like the West won the lottery, but lost the ticket...