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presenting “new [CBA] proposals”

I dont need to explain anything Buck. I think I made my point. I do agree with dfw gen though. Things are not bad enough yet.
DFWGEN: I just brought up OWS because the union chose to take their cause as one of the membership without asking. What does it have to do with the thread? OWS's path is that of taking from the haves for the have nots without cause, very similar to the way the union operates, the skill versus unskilled argument and what you might obtain in a CBA. nuff said.
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You are exactly right Strake. And no you made no point about anything, especially about the topic of the thread. Thats okay' I tend to do that once in awhile, but I am learning. Seems like your glass is less than half empty, I tend to hope the company and union alike have learmed something from those who have taken the BK road. I will not believe it until I see it.



[sic] hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.
 
informer don't see where i lowered you below me due to your job title. i disagree with your stance on the TA, nothing that can be done about that now. but hey if you feel like your lower than an AMT that's your cross to bear. as far as im concerned welding is a part of maintenance and should be, but please dont get on your soap box and tell me your welding 8 hours a day ..........
 
Word on the street is this: DFW will be reduced by 21-26%. Most flights that will get cut will be the flights that AA still flys just to keep customers (not making money) which are in direct compatition with Southwest just 8 miles away at a more customer friendly airport, fixing to be even more customer friendly after the total make over is done. Plus now that the "Green Line" is done, most all customers don't even have to drive to the airport, just take the DART.
Some maint. over at Alliance may be relocated to more cost efficient locations like Tulsa. Some "other" maint. lines will get reduced, if not canceled in Tulsa to make room for the transfer of some maint. from Alliance to Tulsa, or wherever they decide to move to.
Pensions will be turned over to the gov. Wages will get attacked again. Cost of medical will increase for less coverage. Retires covered medical will also get hammered pretty hard.
AA Doesn't want US as a merger partner, they would prefer to do it on thier own. However they could easily go after JetBlue, Frontier, and of coarse AE. Not only to get back to thier number one stattus, but to rid of some more compatition.
The biggest thing AA needs to prepare for is the direct "MAJOR" compatition coming to them from Southwest in 2014 when the W/E goes away. Southwest will spend millions upon millions to advertise DAL as a new city. Most people outside of the Texas area don't even realize why Southwest doesn't fly non-stop from here, when Southwest starts the advertising campaign more than likely in Late 2012 or maybe into 2013, it will have a huge effect on AA.
There will also be reductions in the work force as well, no numbers yet, do to it is all tied to the amount of flight reductions, maint. reductions and so on... But be prepared, the numbers will be huge. This is all we are hearing so far....

Gotta love the "word on the street" :blink:
 
Once UA and DL did away or froze pensions it was only a matter of time the only was to get competitive was to match the competition.
AA does not want to match the competition they want to get better deals than their competition because they have always had that from us.

When I hired on 25 years ago the starting pay at AA was $3/hr less and it was 7 years longer to top out than the other legacy carriers. AA had a cost advantage even though on paper the top wages were around the same, we usually lagged by a small amount.

When we would bring up that our top pay lagged competitors we were told "You guys have a better pension because you have a higher multiplier" We did have a higher multiplier but we did not have a better pension because we lost the first year. Here is how that works out. Lets say two mechanics started the same day at different carriers and retired 30 years later making the same pay;
UA 30 x .0165 x $50,000= $24750
AA 29 x .0167 x $50,000= $24215
However that was not how it was explained to us, they would say "years in the plan" which would skew the numbers.
AA 30 x ,0167 x $50,000= $25050
The AA mechanic would be getting $535 less a year as opposed to the $300 more per year he was told the higher multiplier would give him. The Gap does narrow over time, after 40 years it would narrow to $435, but in order for the higher multiplier to out weigh the loss of the first year the AA mechanic would have to have over 80 years in the plan, not even Al Blackman has that. In other words AA had a cost advantage even back when I hired as far as the pension, despite their unchallenged claim that the higher multiplier made our plan richer and they get away with the same slight of hand with other parts of our contract as well.

I've said all along that giving AA those concessions in 2003 was a huge mistake and the fact that they filed has only made me more certain of that. Some say we saved OH by doing that but they forget that we gave AA a huge advantage over their competitors in OH back in 1995. In addition to a weak scope clause we had given AA a permanent underclass of low paid mechanics and they were able to maintain that low cost structure in the event of a RIF- SRPs and OSMs. None of our competitors had that in their contracts, some still dont despite several trips through BK. The question still remains can AA get it done cheaper? The fact that they still bring work in pretty much answers that question.

In April of 2003, UA was only able to extract a 13% paycut and some stuff that we had given up in 1983 from their mechanics, then what happened? We, outside of BK decided to give AA not only a 17.5% paycut but we gave up things that our peers kept even after several more rounds through the courts. Sure we kept our pensions, but then we lobbied so they could underfund it so AA ended up paying less into our pensions than our competitors paid into the DC plans that replaced the DB plans they either terminated or froze. Now its claimed if AA defaults it would be the biggest default ever! Was lobbying to allow AA time to pay a good move? We kept our prefund retiree medical as well, but we more than paid for it by losing 7 sick days, half pay for the first two and 70 IOD days. We kept our pension but we paid for it with having one less vacation week per year regardless of the step, so in other words since 2003, even at our reduced pay we gave the company $10,480 that our competitors did not get even through BK, our holidays were an even bigger concession, we only got five and we got them at half pay, our brothers at UAL didnt lose any holidays until 2005 and they still got eight at double time.

Holiday hours UA AA
2003 120 20
2004 120 20
2005 120 20
2006 64 20
2007 64 20
2008 64 20
2009 64 20
2010 64 20
2011 64 20
Total 744 180

Mechanics at UAL who worked the holidays were paid an additional 744 ours since 2003 while mechanics at AA who worked the Holidays only recieved an additional 180 hours pay. At $32.75 this comes out to the AA guys earning $18,471 less than their peers who went through BK.

So between just the Vacation and the Holidays we earned roughly $29,000 less than our brothers who went through BK in order to save the pension. These were real time dollars that AA saved, not liabilities that could be offset by a strong staock market like the pension and Retiree medical. We also gave up 70 IOD days and 7 sick days per year and several other concessions that our peers at UAL did not lose. If you suffered a serious injury at work that kept you out over 80 days you could have lost as much as another $18,000 more than your peer at UAL who was out the same amount of time.

Yes their DB pension was dumped in the PBGC, but they recieved a 5% DC that included everything but profit sharing, not just base 2080 hours like AA wanted us to accept for new hires and they proposed to Fleet in a TA outside of BK. The half a percent more, if you matched(UAL requires no contribution from the employee for the 5%) is much like the higher multiplier, the fact that OT funds are not matched wipes out any advantage the extra half a percent gives. They also recieved convertable notes and stock in the new company. Their Retiree Medical was cut, but they never paid into it and the last TA had a sick bank funded plan like Continental has with enough sick time to fund it and a reasonable rate to pay for it (12 days vs 8 and 11 hrs vs 20. On top of that in the rejected TA AA wanted us to give our after tax contributions to them for "credit hours" which would have likely dissapeared in BK, that would be a retro pay cut extending back as much as 20 years).

The fact is that AA currently has a cost advantage over most of their competitors, they hide it in the fact that they have more mechanics because we do the work in house but as far as average hourly rates adjusted for things such as Sick Time hours earned per year, Vacation hours earned per year, Holidays hours earned per Year, AA already has pretty much everyone beat, even the ones that went BK.
 
If you look back Bob the money is in the pilots benefits, ours are just icing on the cake!
 

The reality is that everything Bob Owens posted above you is probably true.

This post and his others have gotten us nowhere. His videos have gotten us nowhere. His ads in newspapers have gotten us nowhere.

And it doesn't change the fact that had the T/A passed most every member would have had more prior to Chapter 11 filing.

And so now, the Flock of Lawyers will all fare better than we will.

That is reality.
 
The reality is that everything Bob Owens posted above you is probably true.

This post and his others have gotten us nowhere. His videos have gotten us nowhere. His ads in newspapers have gotten us nowhere.

And it doesn't change the fact that had the T/A passed most every member would have had more prior to Chapter 11 filing.

And so now, the Flock of Lawyers will all fare better than we will.

That is reality.

Do you believe that if we had passed the TA that AA would not have filed?

I think that had we all passed TAs three years ago they would have filed three years ago, only they would have gone into BK with more concessions than they did.

If the TA had passed last year everyone under 50 at the time would have already lost not just their retiree medical but their prefunding match and after tax contributions as well, all of us most likely would have made much less in OT as dislocated mechanics from the class II stations moved into the class ones because thanks to the ASM increase they closed those stations. They also could have sold off Tulsa or any other facility and let those with A&Ps bump to the line, further reducing OT especialy at stations like DFW where they were up to 1000 hours months ago, because Tulsa's market value is less than 25% of the 'value" of AA's M&R operation the buyer would not have to offer you jobs or abide by the contract, but they probably would want to retain most of the workers, but who knows at what rates. You say "most every member would have had more", but you may not even be working for AA now if that had passed, and with OT at record levels across the system most guys in the larger stations made more in OT than they would have from the raise, if you recall back in 2001 after we got the new contract OT in many places went to pretty much NIL. Even in stations like JFK where they have overstaffed it since we stuck it up their ass after Hard Copy guys are making around $15k a year in OT. So right now the Class IIs are still staffed, Tulsa is still AA and we still have our Pensions and Retiree Medical, and all the funds in Prefunding are still ours.

They told us in 2003 that they struck new deals with their vendors, but now we find that they are still paying leases on Fokkers! Who knows how many hundreds of millions they have paid out for facilities and equipment they dont even use anymore. Now we will find out. Now that we know that they obviously did not get such great deals from their Vendors back in 2003, they certainly didnt get better deals than they would have in BK like they did from us, and are still tied to paying for stuff they dont use it becomes clearer that the BK filing was inevitable. We should have made them file in 2003 before they wasted all that money.

They filed for BK, they should have done it in 2003. The threat is over, they pulled the trigger and right now we are both still standing. The fact is neither one of us knows for sure what would have happened or what will happen. We dont even know for sure what the company is going to ask for.
 
They told us in 2003 that they struck new deals with their vendors, but now we find that they are still paying leases on Fokkers! Who knows how many hundreds of millions they have paid out for facilities and equipment they dont even use anymore. Now we will find out.

Hmm. Guess you don't know the difference between vendors and lessors.

The company had 100 F10's, and was able to sell or negotiate away 95% of the leases and airplanes. Four were unwilling to budge. Seems 95% is still a better track record than you seem to have racked up for your members.

Since the only leaseholds being refused so far seem to be MCI and an office at MDW, I don't think there are really hundreds of millions in waste since 2003, but do keep watching the docket. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
 
One only has to look a billions wasted ,See all the unwanted RJ's. These Aircraft were a Fad,now a liability that in the end helped AMR into BK,throw in TWA MD80's and you have a complete looser.
 
Yep. Maybe if the unions had been a little less worried about scope, all that liability would have been sitting with the guys like Republic instead of being insourced via Eagle. CO and AA had the tightest scope, and they owned their regionals. UA had looser scope, and didn't own any of their regionals. DL was somewhere in the middle... loose scope but they still haven't been able to unload Comair.
 
Gotta love the "word on the street" :blink:
I think maybe you and paul are the only 2 that get it!! This thread was started out with a question about "has anyone heard" and the info being tracked was about any future contract info since BK. Then this thread took a complete 180. Now this thread should be titled "what happened in the past BK's" AND the original poster of the thread is going with the 180. Then there's BOB!! Gotta love Bob. Bob and I have gone head to head before, we do understand each other, and he is very pasionate with what he does and will do over the years to come. Bob, I have one question for you: Do you believe that AA planned this BK from back in 2003? My honest opinion, as you may have read here, is that AA planned to get the 2003 consessions to avoid BK then, thinking or knowing they would in fact revisit it at a later date b/c they allowed the pensions to remain. And they would have a better canvas to compare with now that all the other majors are out of BK. Out of the 6 majors, AA will come out of BK the lowest cost legacy out there.

And just to clear up. Yes my previous post about "word on the street" was completely made up to try to get a responce. So completely ignor what I posted, it was just off the top of my head. And with Bob not telling me I was full of ####, told me you guys took it with a grain of salt anyway. Hence the title "word on the street" Sorry for the confusion, just trying to open someones eyes and have a little fun at it...
 
When you state that AA planned, don't you really mean AA/TWU planned?
 
When you state that AA planned, don't you really mean AA/TWU planned?
Let's just say that they had discussions prior to BK. I am not saying the TWU knew this was going to happen, and the members would have a DFR at hand if that was true, so, the TWU will never admit it. However, if the members at AA/TWU had access to ALL your nego. between the company and Union, then you would already know. Observers are a great addition to the nego. here at AMFA. This way there is no BS stired, and no "behind closed doors" deals done. AA did in fact plan this BK way back in the early 2000's, rather the TWU was on board or not is beyond me. I do know that Bob was completely against the conssesions in 2003, and voiced it publicly. Most of us have seen it here from years ago. To answer your question, NO. I have no idea if the TWU and AA dreamed up this dream of a BK. However, I will guarrentee you, Bob is fixin to chime in. Hello Bob................
 

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