Problem Identified

[proAMFA]

All this debate of which organization is a real union and which orgainization is not has nothing to do with affiliation.

I couldn't help reading about whether or not the Pilots Union will or will not support the mechanics and related at NWA if they go out on strike. I couldn't help but notice that the flight attendants union is having a vote whether or not to support the mechanics if they strike. And the "Fighting Machinists"-the IAM, well let's just say they don't appear to be living up to their name.

There is no debate in my book, if your orgainization elects to have its members cross a picket line then they are not a real union. REAL UNIONS DO NOT CROSS PICKET LINES!

Simple as that.

Are we going to start behaving as real union brothers and sisters or are the Airlines going to continue whittling down our numbers, pay, and benefits?

 

[Man of the People]

That's the problem around here. Everyone has a short memory. It wasn't too long ago AMFA was torching just about every other union out there. AMFA was saying they were all second-rate copared to AMFA. Now that AMFA is in a pinch, they are waving the solidarity flag. This should serve as a lesson not to berate other unions. The TWU said they would not help AMFA in the past because AMFA was not AFL-CIO affiliated. Yet the APA is not affiliated with the AFL-CIO and I see we seem to recognize their union. It's all a joke. Don't be fooled. IF you back AMFA, IAM, TWU, IBT, APA, ALPA, APFA, etc., it all about dues money.....

 

[Bob Owens]

That's the problem around here.  Everyone has a short memory.  It wasn't too long ago AMFA was torching just about every other union out there.  AMFA was saying they were all second-rate copared to AMFA.  Now that AMFA is in a pinch, they are waving the solidarity flag.  This should serve as a lesson not to berate other unions.  The TWU said they would not help AMFA in the past because AMFA was not AFL-CIO affiliated.  Yet the APA is not affiliated with the AFL-CIO and I see we seem to recognize their union.  It's all a joke.  Don't be fooled.  IF you back AMFA, IAM, TWU, IBT, APA, ALPA, APFA, etc., it all about dues money.....

[post="287729"][/post]​

Over in England we can see true unionism at work. The food service workers at Brittish went on strike and others honored their pickets.

A few years back when I was in Ireland I witnessed true unionism also. You see unions can fight, disagree and debate ideology, craft vs industrial etc, but real unions NEVER side with the company against other unions.

In the west of Ireland the Train engineerss were unhappy with their union, so they formed their own union and left. The fight was every bit as bitter as what we have seen with the AMFA drives. However when the engineers in the new union went on strike the union that they broke away from honoured their picket lines.

AMFA has a policy of not crossing picket lines or scabbing work. The Teamsters usually have the same policy. As we see the IAM feels that their past differences are more important than standing together against the company. THe Continental pilots did the same thing back in the early eighties, after busting the machinists with the pilots help Lorenzo turned around and busted them too. Did the pilots expect the scabs to support them?

The TWU is even worse than the IAM, Alitalia was on strike for around five years and Alitalia was on the TWUs "Do Not Buy" list yet the TWU had their members working Alitalia.

Putting the welfare of workers first, even if it means putting aside personal or professional differences is one of the things that real unions do. However there is a malignant form of unionism that will not do this, it never puts the labor movement as a whole or even its own members welfare first, these "unions" are what is known as "business unions". THey exist for the benifit of the officers of the union, not the members.The TWU-ATD has been one for a long time, the IAM is pretty much there too. These unions are the greatest threat to workers because as they hide behind their "union" title and AFL-CIO affiliation they degrade the working conditions of union members in a contest to get the most dues payers. They put workers in a race to the bottom. All they care about is their dues.

 

[FWAAA]

Over in England we can see true unionism at work. The food service workers at Brittish went on strike and others honored their pickets.

[post="287856"][/post]​

That's not exactly what happened.

Gate Gourmet sacked/fired/canned several hundred of its workers. The baggage handlers struck because they were in the same union as the fired outsourced caterers.

The pax were so angry and belligerant that various agent union members struck because they were concerned about their safety. Apparently, pax were screaming and threatening - I don't blame the agents for walking out. Nobody should have to put up with that crap.

Here's a summary of the BA debacle of the past two days: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050812/britain_bri...ways.html?.v=42

 

[TWU informer]

That's not exactly what happened.

Gate Gourmet sacked/fired/canned several hundred of its workers.   The baggage handlers struck because they were in the same union as the fired outsourced  caterers.

The pax were so angry and belligerant that various agent union members struck because they were concerned about their safety.   Apparently, pax were screaming and threatening - I don't blame the agents for walking out.   Nobody should have to put up with that crap.

Here's a summary of the BA debacle of the past two days:   http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050812/britain_bri...ways.html?.v=42

[post="287887"][/post]​

Gate Gourmet provides onboard meals for British Airways flights. The workers' union said the company had fired 800 workers on Wednesday after an unofficial strike. The company said 667 workers had been dismissed.

They were fired for striking.

You and OneFlyer are so determined to battle Bob Owens, you dont even get your own facts straight. You just attack!

 

[aafsc]

Over in England we can see true unionism at work. The food service workers at Brittish went on strike and others honored their pickets.

A few years back when I was in Ireland I witnessed true unionism also. You see unions can fight, disagree and debate ideology, craft vs industrial etc, but real unions NEVER side with the company against other unions.

In the west of Ireland the Train engineerss were unhappy with their union, so they formed their own union and left. The fight was every bit as bitter as what we have seen with the AMFA drives. However when the engineers in the new union went on strike the union that they broke away from honoured their picket lines.

AMFA has a policy of not crossing picket lines or scabbing work. The Teamsters usually have the same policy. As we see the IAM feels that their past differences are more important than standing together against the company. THe Continental pilots did the same thing back in the early eighties, after busting the machinists with the pilots help Lorenzo turned around and busted them too. Did the pilots expect the scabs to support them?

The TWU is even worse than the IAM, Alitalia was on strike for around five years and Alitalia was on the TWUs "Do Not Buy" list yet the TWU had their members working Alitalia.

Putting the welfare of workers first, even if it means putting aside personal or professional differences is one of the things that real unions do. However there is a malignant form of unionism that will not do this, it never puts the labor movement as a whole or even its own members welfare first, these "unions" are what is known as "business unions". THey exist for the benifit of the officers of the union, not the members.The TWU-ATD has been one for a long time, the IAM is pretty much there too. These unions are the greatest threat to workers because as they hide behind their "union" title and AFL-CIO affiliation they degrade the working conditions of union members in a contest to get the most dues payers. They put workers in a race to the bottom. All they care about is their dues.

[post="287856"][/post]​

Bob, the mentality of the Europeans is vastly different from that of the people of the US. A prime example of this is the fact that the European countries have more socialized economies (socialized medicine, guaranteed pensions that "wall street" can't steal, etc.). That is what the Europeans want and the governments they have put in place implement these policies to protect the average worker. I watched a documentary on Germany and a young German said "It would be unthinkable for a German to see another German without healthcare." Contrast this to the fact that millions of people in this country shop at Walmart to save a few pennies at the expense of the front line employees who make below poverty wages with no health insurance, pension, etc., while Walmart and it's executives make obscene amounts of money. I am not trying to start a political debate but I am just illustrating the difference between the US and Europe. In Europe, the average person has some protection but the attitude in this country has always been "hooray for me and screw you". Always has been, always will be. And it is this attitude that has greatly contributed to the death of unions in this country. A prime example is with what is happening at NW right now. AMFA's has always said that they don't need strength in numbers, only skill to achieve their objectives. They got in at NW and a few others. I have read on other boards the derogatory remarks directed at non-A and Ps (especially ramp) by some of the NW AMTs right after AMFA won at NW. They were very happy to finally be on their own. Now, with their "strength in skill" theory about to be tested (with NW claiming only to need 2500 AMTs and having replacements ready) they are asking the other unions to honor their picket lines. Why would they now claim to need the help of "sky waitresses" and "ramp trash"? The fact is most of the AMFA A and Ps look at non- A and Ps with contempt (Even though you support AMFA, I don't include you on this list because I have never seen any of your posts attack the ramp or other work groups.) If the situation at NW was reversed, and the IAM was about to be wiped out, do you really think the AMFA at NW would honor an IAM ramp picket line? The NW AMFA reportedly told NW management to more than double the IAM concessions, while minimizing AMFAs. The AMFA at NW would be more than happy to help NW managment exterminate the ramp because they feel that a topped out IAM member at $40,000-$45,000a year with benefits is holding them back at $75,000 a year with benefits and is preventing them from getting their $100,000 a year with benefits. And considering the verbal and sometimes physical assaults on IAM members at NW by AMFA members (as reported in Roache's letter), it looks to me like AMFA at NW would not honor an IAM picket line. However, the ALPA, IAM, and PFAA at NW has not made any decisions yet. They usually announce on or near the day of the strike. But whatever they decide, it is up to them.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, the mentality of the Europeans is vastly different from that of the people of the US. A prime example of this is the fact that the European countries have more socialized economies (socialized medicine, guaranteed pensions that "wall street" can't steal, etc.). That is what the Europeans want and the governments they have put in place implement these policies to protect the average worker. I watched a documentary on Germany and a young German said "It would be unthinkable for a German to see another German without healthcare." Contrast this to the fact that millions of people in this country shop at Walmart to save a few pennies at the expense of the front line employees who make below poverty wages with no health insurance, pension, etc., while Walmart and it's executives make obscene amounts of money.

I am not trying to start a political debate but I am just illustrating the difference between the US and Europe. In Europe, the average person has some protection but the attitude in this country has always been "hooray for me and screw you". Always has been, always will be.


I think you are confusing American with America. Have you spent your whole career at AA? Most people adapt to the culture they are exposed to and the culture here has been "I got mine". When properly informed the people of this country are just as socially balanced as Europeans. Basically most people who have been raised correctly want to be good fair and just.

And it is this attitude that has greatly contributed to the death of unions in this country.


Many factors have contributed to that, but most of all its the lack of leadership. The last labor leader I saw that was really impressive was Ron Carey. Most unions are headed by hostile old men who lock themselves away from their members like despots.When the members are removed from the process of choosing the leaders its no suprise that they lack confidence in them.

A prime example is with what is happening at NW right now. AMFA's has always said that they don't need strength in numbers, only skill to achieve their objectives.

No I believe AMFAs position was strength in unity. Some supporters may have claimed that but I have not heard that from any of the top leaders of AMFA.

They got in at NW and a few others. I have read on other boards the derogatory remarks directed at non-A and Ps (especially ramp) by some of the NW AMTs right after AMFA won at NW.


How do you know they were NW AMTS? Even if they were do you brand the whole group based upon the comments made by a handful of people posting under an alias? Could have been IAM officials stirring the pot. In fact I recall AMFA supporting other workers at NW in political actions.

They were very happy to finally be on their own. Now, with their "strength in skill" theory about to be tested (with NW claiming only to need 2500 AMTs and having replacements ready) they are asking the other unions to honor their picket lines. Why would they now claim to need the help of "sky waitresses" and "ramp trash"?


So should we assume that all FSCs at AA consider NWA employees to be "sky waitresses" and "ramp trash"? You are the one who wrote it. Get the point?

The fact is most of the AMFA A and Ps look at non- A and Ps with contempt (Even though you support AMFA, I don't include you on this list because I have never seen any of your posts attack the ramp or other work groups.)

Thats odd when you consider that AMFA represents non A&Ps too. Ill admit that some A&Ps feel that way but lets face it no group is absent of a$$holes and no group has a monopoly on them either.I would bet that there are more people like me who support AMFA than feel the other way. Most people that trash other workers are basically non-union.


If the situation at NW was reversed, and the IAM was about to be wiped out, do you really think the AMFA at NW would honor an IAM ramp picket line?

Yes I do. Thats why they wrote it into their contracts , unlike the TWU.

The NW AMFA reportedly told NW management to more than double the IAM concessions, while minimizing AMFAs.


Thats a claim that the IAM is making and AMFA is denying. Since the IAM is making the claim they should bear the burden of proof.

The AMFA at NW would be more than happy to help NW managment exterminate the ramp because they feel that a topped out IAM member at $40,000-$45,000a year with benefits is holding them back at $75,000 a year with benefits and is preventing them from getting their $100,000 a year with benefits.


I think that if they truly ever did feel that way those illusions were banished during their first round of negotiations with NWA. Once again AMFA has it written that they will honor legal pickets, does the TWU?

And considering the verbal and sometimes physical assaults on IAM members at NW by AMFA members (as reported in Roache's letter), it looks to me like AMFA at NW would not honor an IAM picket line.


Once again you are taking the IAMs word without any evidence to back it up. Look they had a divorce, things got ugly from both sides, the AMFA at NWA has made overtures towards reconciliation over the years but the IAM remains bitter. If NWA shakes AMFA do you think they are going to stop there? What makes them think that they(the IAM) wont be next? Thats how Lorenzo did it. Divide and conquer. There are plenty of laid off FSC and pilots out there too. If they can dig up enough scab mechanics dont you think they could do the same with FSCs and pilots? You know they will save the pilots for last. And once NWA busts their unions dont you think other carriers will follow? Couldnt you see AA wanting to make all FSC part time like the gate agents? (A lot of the full time FSCs make a lot more money than the A&Ps at JFK, they live here and suck up all the OT.) Well in order to do that they would have to bust the TWU right? The APA and APFA are unaffiliated, the TWU never gave them much support during their strikes against the company. The line mechanics simply do not want the TWU, we would rather save the $600/year and cut our own deals than have Little and company doing it. So what would stop the company from busting the TWU? Tulsa? Ok so Tulsa walks out, then what? The company would still have their pilots , flight attendants and line mechanics, they would be a giant SWA. The company would then hire in TWU Local 504 represented Worldwide to load and unload the planes and shift R&D back to maintenance, line maintenance would at first be non union and no longer have a contract, we probably wouldnt even notice a difference.


However, the ALPA, IAM, and PFAA at NW has not made any decisions yet. They usually announce on or near the day of the strike. But whatever they decide, it is up to them.

Yes it is, and we all will be affected by it. I said it three years ago on these boards that once they start getting concessions they will just keep coming back until we decide to fight back. They may even liquidate a carrier just to send the fear into the rest of us "see this is what happens when you dare to resist", but if NWA gets what they want you can rest assured that AA will be back for more.

 

[Bob Owens]

As for the pilots both Delta and Fed Ex have learned to live with unionized pilots but ahave kept the rest of the workforce non-union.

 

[aafsc]

I myself was not referring to F/As as "sky waitresses" and FSCs as "ramp trash"; I put those terms in quotes because that is what some of the AMFA AMTs referred to them as.

As for the AMFA representing non A and Ps, look what they did at UA...they got rid of all of them; the fuelers, computer techs, and cleaners. At least the TWU (and I'm not defending them), was able to move the cleaners to midnite cabin. From there they went to Jr FSC and when Jr FSC was gone they got on the regular FSC scale (even though they lost occupational seniority).

I agree that what happens at NW will have a significant impact on the industry in terms of labor along with $67 a barrel oil.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

When properly informed the people of this country are just as socially balanced as Europeans.

Now.....................about the last election.........

 

[upsilon]

When properly informed the people of this country are just as socially balanced as Europeans.

Now..about the last election...

In view of the last election results (PotUS, HoR and Senate), who is responsible for this lack of the majority of the voting "people of this country" not being "properly 'inform'ed"? And who decides what is "proper"; and just suppose the 'inform'ation is not accepted as "proper"?

In my opinion an overwhelming majority of Americans have been rejecting European "social" values since they first came almost 400 years ago. Over the ensuing years millions more have come to escape European values; and we have created our own "social balance". It has always borne little resemblence to any contemporary European equivalent.

I don't expect the newest Latino additions to change it. They will be assimilated - just as were the Irish, Italians, Jews from Europe and the Chinese, Korean, Viet Namese from Asia.

Judging by the dramatically declining union membership numbers recently publicly admitted by AFL-CIO leaders, I question whether unions are the best "informers". This decline is bad enough as an absolute number; but it is much worse as a percentage of the workforce.

Until unions arrest the decline in their own numbers, their 'proper information' message will continue to be lost on "the people of this country". Thus, if I were a union person. I suppose I would have to agree with the AFL-CIO dissidents that dues money would better be spent on ‘organizing’ rather than ‘politicizing’.

However, I question whether either will really be very effective – but to me better the chicken (organizing) should come before the egg (politicizing). However, the main dues thrust seems to be “aggrandising†– a goal usually equated to AA top management on this and other AA threads. The word root is the act of increasing the wealth or prestige or power or scope of something.

I leave it to the union member posters as to which is the goal of the various AA employee union leaders.

 

[Bob Owens]

When properly informed the people of this country are just as socially balanced as Europeans.

Now..about the last election...

In view of the last election results (PotUS, HoR and Senate), who is responsible for this lack of the majority of the voting "people of this country" not being "properly 'inform'ed"? And who decides what is "proper"; and just suppose the 'inform'ation is not accepted as "proper"?

The people who own the corporations that distrubute the media for the most part control the information we see. So despite the rights claim of the "liberal media" the fact is that the media is the megaphone of privately held corporations who tend to be conservative. While outright censorship has not been instituted the sheer volume due to the vast resourses of the major media corporation effectivly drowns out the possiblity that people recieve balanced reports. Right wing watchdog groups who have complete control of certain networks (such as Fox) specialize in propaganda techniques that were used by the Nazis and Communists. Political adversaries are slandered and demonized in order to drown out whatever message they have. Spurrious stories that are either half truths or outright lies spewed out by right wing propaganda centers are broadcast by FOX and other far right networks, then when other networks fail to cover the same stories due to their nature and the inability to verify content or sources they claim that "the liberal media" is censoring news. The failure of the media to distribute accurate balanced news is one of the reason why a large number of American actually believe that Iraq had a part in Sept 11. Who benifits from such a belief? The liberals or the Conservatives?

In my opinion an overwhelming majority of Americans have been rejecting European "social" values since they first came almost 400 years ago.

Wrong. Our democratic roots go back to the Magna Carta. Our Common law system also came from England and most retianed their religions, surnames, customs etc. Most of the Scots and Irish came here because of agrarian changes in the Brittish Isles where landlords were changing their farming practices and clearing people off the land.

Over the ensuing years millions more have come to escape European values; and we have created our own "social balance". It has always borne little resemblence to any contemporary European equivalent.

Wrong again. They came to either escape corrupted political systems or for economic opportunity. At Ellis Island they display both Immigration and Emmigration figures and you would be suprised to see how high emmigration figures were at times, meaning many came here and went back.

I don't expect the newest Latino additions to change it. They will be assimilated - just as were the Irish, Italians, Jews from Europe and the Chinese, Korean, Viet Namese from Asia.


Assimilated? By that do you mean speaking English or becoming what you consider to be "an American". By the way since you claim we have all assimilated could you please give me a description of your "assimilated American? What does he/she look like? What reigion do they practice? What is their last name? What do they eat? The fact is we are a tossed salad not a melting pot. The biggest link we have is our love of Freedom and tolerance to accept the fact that we are different.


Judging by the dramatically declining union membership numbers recently publicly admitted by AFL-CIO leaders, I question whether unions are the best "informers". This decline is bad enough as an absolute number; but it is much worse as a percentage of the workforce.


The decline in union membership is due to many factors, one no doubt is the lack of democratic accountability within many of todays unions.

Until unions arrest the decline in their own numbers, their 'proper information' message will continue to be lost on "the people of this country". Thus, if I were a union person. I suppose I would have to agree with the AFL-CIO dissidents that dues money would better be spent on ‘organizing’ rather than ‘politicizing’.

OK.

However, I question whether either will really be very effective – but to me better the chicken (organizing) should come before the egg (politicizing). However, the main dues thrust seems to be “aggrandising†– a goal usually equated to AA top management on this and other AA threads. The word root is the act of increasing the wealth or prestige or power or scope of something.

I leave it to the union member posters as to which is the goal of the various AA employee union leaders.


Its pretty clear that the goals of TWU leaders only inclued "self interest".