Putting Pencil to Paper

jimntx

Veteran
Jun 28, 2003
11,161
3,285
Dallas, TX
Just doing some calculating. According to the LBFO vs. Term Sheet comparison document, I will receive a 3% raise ($1.24/hr) on Date of Signing. Well good.

Now for the new "average" work month, let's use an 80 hour schedule.

Under the current pay rates, I would gross $3357.80 for an 80 hour month. 70 hours base pay + 10 hours incentive pay.

Under the LBFO, I would gross $3395.20 for an 80 hour month. (80 hours base pay.) So, I will receive an additional $37.40/month! That is, of course, before taxes and other deductions.

That amounts to an additional $448.80 per year. However, my annual insurance deductible is increasing $600 from $150 to $750; so, I'm already in the hole to the tune of $151.20. And, we don't even know yet how much the monthly insurance premium is increasing, but I'm guessing at least triple.

If I want to continue accruing retirement money, then I have a deduction for the 401-K. 3% contribution would be an additional deduction of approx. $102/mo--in pretax dollars of course.

Now, I'm just a lowly English Lit major; so, could a math or finance major please explain to me how taking home several hundred dollars less is a raise?
 
One might consider this an irrellevant exercise and use the current time to plan his new career. This one went down the poop-chute.
 
For the sake of accuracy, did you do your calculations with NO 3% pay increase? You might like that even less. Plus the 3% 401k contribution is voluntary, so if you can't afford it you can stop it. Mind you, you won't get any match either.
 
Just doing some calculating. According to the LBFO vs. Term Sheet comparison document, I will receive a 3% raise ($1.24/hr) on Date of Signing. Well good.

Now for the new "average" work month, let's use an 80 hour schedule.

Under the current pay rates, I would gross $3357.80 for an 80 hour month. 70 hours base pay + 10 hours incentive pay.

Under the LBFO, I would gross $3395.20 for an 80 hour month. (80 hours base pay.) So, I will receive an additional $37.40/month! That is, of course, before taxes and other deductions.

That amounts to an additional $448.80 per year. However, my annual insurance deductible is increasing $600 from $150 to $750; so, I'm already in the hole to the tune of $151.20. And, we don't even know yet how much the monthly insurance premium is increasing, but I'm guessing at least triple.

If I want to continue accruing retirement money, then I have a deduction for the 401-K. 3% contribution would be an additional deduction of approx. $102/mo--in pretax dollars of course.

Now, I'm just a lowly English Lit major; so, could a math or finance major please explain to me how taking home several hundred dollars less is a raise?

I am not a FA, but aren't trips picked up from other crewmembers (i.e. high time flyers) paid at base rate and not at an incentive/overtime rate? As an agent I can work 80 hours per week, all at straight pay if I pick up those additional hours from another agent.

How much is sequence protection worth to you? Having a three day trip worth 18 hours cancel on day one, and still being able to get paid fully for that trip?

401K deduction still goes to the employee, pay is not lost, just deferred until retirement, which given your admitted age on the board is just a few short years away. It also has the ability to shrink or grow depending on the aggressiveness of your 401K portfolio. So a 3% reduction in pay for your 401K could result in a very low risk portfolio easily 4 to 4.5% pay.

There are plusses and minuses, Jim, the big plus is, IF the LBFO passes, there will be a mass exodus of FA/s leaving AA within the next year. Which could result in your being able to hold better trips as your relative seniority will certainly be improved.
 
Any idea of the percentage differences when compared to DL, UAL and USAir FAs?

I know the apples/oranges agrument may apply depending on contract differences.

Thanks
 
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I am not a FA, but aren't trips picked up from other crewmembers (i.e. high time flyers) paid at base rate and not at an incentive/overtime rate? As an agent I can work 80 hours per week, all at straight pay if I pick up those additional hours from another agent.

There are plusses and minuses, Jim, the big plus is, IF the LBFO passes, there will be a mass exodus of FA/s leaving AA within the next year. Which could result in your being able to hold better trips as your relative seniority will certainly be improved.

Currently trips picked up through double-trip-trading are paid at incentive rates if they are over the 70 hour base rate. However, under the new regime there will be no incentive pay; so, moot point. As a f/a attendant to get 80 hours of pay, I have to be on duty for 150-170 hours. Only flight hours are paid--door closed and pushed back until door open. If we have a 3 hour sit in Dallas between flights, we are on duty--can be contacted and reassigned at any time--but we are not paid for that time. My point was simply to note that the "raise" isn't one. The increases in medical alone will more than wipe out any increase in pay. I don't know what employees with children at home will do. A friend who works for United/Continental is paying over $700/mo just for basic medical insurance.

As far as sequence protection, we have it already for the last 5 days of the month. If a situation arises where we are supposed to be paid for a busted trip or whatever during those last 5 days, the company seeks diligently to find a loophole or a slip up on your part so they don't have to pay the protection. I don't expect that to change at all. If anything they will get more diligent about finding a way to deny pay protection. (Sorry. You're not eligible. The wind was from the south at the time the wing fell off your a/c during taxi. You are pay protected only when the wind is from the north.)

If you believe that there is going to be a mass exodus with the VEOP, I must say I find that level of naivete refreshing in this day and age. I will be surprised if 2000 take it. Considering that you have to get to 11769 on the seniority list to find someone who is not yet top of scale and that since all (or most) of the former TW flight attendants were given there TW seniority for pay and benefit purposes, there are over 12,000 of the not quite 16000 f/as who are at top of scale, have 15 or more years and are eligible for the VEOP, 2000 departures would not make much of a dent.

A large number of those who are eligible are not yet 50. If they take the VEOP, they get nothing in retirement except their pension check (assuming the company doesn't find a way to get rid of those in the meantime.) Once they've used up their 18-24 months of passes, they get nothing except the check.

When I started flying for American in 2000, my seniority number was something like 23,400. I was told by one of my new hire instructors, "Oh, don't worry. There are going to be lots of retirements this Fall. Your number will drop rapidly." I'm still waiting for those retirements. :lol: My seniority number just dropped below 15,000 this year.

If anything the new work rules (such as, if you want to call yourself a flight attendant, you are going to have to fly on occasion) will make more of them leave than the VEOP.

By the way, the only people who have truly benefitted from 401K plans since they were first used to substitute for DB plans, are the custodians of those plans. I know several friends in Houston who are going to have to work for the rest of their lives because their 401K plans have gone to pot or no longer even exist. Friends who worked for Enron are left with Social Security only. They were required to invest in company stock only in their 401-K in order to get company matching. Enron and its stock no longer exist.
 
Currently trips picked up through double-trip-trading are paid at incentive rates if they are over the 70 hour base rate. However, under the new regime there will be no incentive pay; so, moot point. As a f/a attendant to get 80 hours of pay, I have to be on duty for 150-170 hours. Only flight hours are paid--door closed and pushed back until door open. If we have a 3 hour sit in Dallas between flights, we are on duty--can be contacted and reassigned at any time--but we are not paid for that time. My point was simply to note that the "raise" isn't one. The increases in medical alone will more than wipe out any increase in pay. I don't know what employees with children at home will do. A friend who works for United/Continental is paying over $700/mo just for basic medical insurance.

If you believe that there is going to be a mass exodus with the VEOP, I must say I find that level of naivete refreshing in this day and age. I will be surprised if 2000 take it. Considering that you have to get to 11769 on the seniority list to find someone who is not yet top of scale and that since all (or most) of the former TW flight attendants were given there TW seniority for pay and benefit purposes, there are over 12,000 of the not quite 16000 f/as who are at top of scale, have 15 or more years and are eligible for the VEOP, 2000 departures would not make much of a dent.

A large number of those who are eligible are not yet 50. If they take the VEOP, they get nothing in retirement except their pension check (assuming the company doesn't find a way to get rid of those in the meantime.) Once they've used up their 18-24 months of passes, they get nothing except the check.

When I started flying for American in 2000, my seniority number was something like 23,400. I was told by one of my new hire instructors, "Oh, don't worry. There are going to be lots of retirements this Fall. Your number will drop rapidly." I'm still waiting for those retirements. :lol: My seniority number just dropped below 15,000 this year.

If anything the new work rules (such as, if you want to call yourself a flight attendant, you are going to have to fly on occasion) will make more of them leave than the VEOP.

By the way, the only people who have truly benefitted from 401K plans since they were first used to substitute for DB plans, are the custodians of those plans. I know several friends in Houston who are going to have to work for the rest of their lives because their 401K plans have gone to pot or no longer even exist. Friends who worked for Enron are left with Social Security only. They were required to invest in company stock only in their 401-K in order to get company matching. Enron and its stock no longer exist.
Wouldn't be nice if 2000 take the VEOP, so you don't have to furlough anyone.Or would you rather we take the term sheet and just lay people off that want to work.
 
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Wouldn't be nice if 2000 take the VEOP, so you don't have to furlough anyone.Or would you rather we take the term sheet and just lay people off that want to work.

Are you willing to bet the rent money that there will be no layoffs regardless of who takes what? I'm not.
 
Are you willing to bet the rent money that there will be no layoffs regardless of who takes what? I'm not.
It all depends on how many people take the VEOP, that is a question that can't be answered.But I will bet everything I have if we take the term sheet there will be layoffs.
 
If you want people who are top of pay, they are in the high 12000 numbers. 14 year f/a's, but 15 year pay and yes, they aren't eligible for the VEOP like you said. So even more are top of pay. Plus even more from Reno which are in the 13000 numbers.
 
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